Came in for a recall issue on 8/21/20. NONE of their service advisors were wearing any face coverings!!!! Fortunately I did not need to leave my car since their staff would also drive the customers vehicles without masks. There is NO WAY I will EVER return to a dealership who allows their employees to defy the LAW and also endanger their customers!!! PAY ATTENTION you are putting everyone at risk by this defiance to the well being of your customers. read more

Horrible sales and customer service. Sales manager walks away without saying anything. For the dealership not having any vehicles on the lot and treating a customer like they don't no anything and just walks away. Seems very professional. read more

I have never had such a easy and relaxed car buying experience like I just had at bell Ford usually I have to get myself all pumped up have a couple drinks and put on my game face and get ready to rumble with the hoard of sales people who converge on you like flies on poop then you find something you like and the back and forth bickering on the price begins well not this time I had one salesman Ricky Thornton who was very easy to work with and he really went to bat for me he got me the price I wanted for my trade in and the price I felt comfortable paying on the new vehicle then he walked me through all the paperwork signed my name 20 times then went and spoke with the finance guy Kevin and he went thru everything we just signed with us gave us some more info asked if we had any questions and that was it no pressure everyone friendly and helpful I know I will be going back to bell Ford in phoenix for my next car purchase THANKS BELL FORD read more

Talked to paul suazo as I was looking to see a f150 lariat and king ranch was told both were in stock and ready to see. When I got there they found another salesman to "help" me, who says "so what are you looking for" you are kidding me? You just wasted 45 mins of my time each way when you had neither to show me. Yes, inventory is tight currently but lying is not acceptable. What did they think that they were going to sweet talk me into buying 70k truck by starting out lying to me to get me in the door? Living up to the typical car sales reputation. Avoid. read more

My son just moved to Phoenix and had a issue with his bronco. Tyler is amazing. He was prompt listened to our concerns and got my son back on the road safety. He is very good at his job and made me feel confident my son was in the best hands. read more

My first visit to Bell Ford for service was a fiasco. I made an appointment for August 6th drop off to be looked at on the 8th. Well I dropped it off on the 5th night drop, got a call from Lyle A. On Tuesday explaining how every item I listed has a $250 fee to look at, if the work is done it is waived. Well 6 warranty items were knocked down to two problems buy me. I know with experience the service writers say just the right phrase, " it's worn, not broken" to get denied so they can get full price. Well got a text on Thursday " it is busy and we haven't looked at your truck". So Saturday the 12th I went in to take it back seeing how they seem my time is worthless. When I arrived I have young kid working on Saturday my phone number to look it up, when he looked it up it was not my truck, or my name listed under it. Well hell! Was he even calling me about my truck. So moral of this review DON NOT TRUST BELL FORD! read more

Bell Ford - Car Dealers Near Me - Phoenix, Arizona

My husband and I were on the prowl for a car for my 16 year old daughter. Of course, our main concern was safety and reliability. Joe Corella assisted us in finding the perfect car for her at a price that was fair. He went above and beyond to make sure the car was safe by communicating with the mechanic that it was for a 16 year old and to double check everything. There was an issue with the screen for the back up camera and he made sure this was fixed and done right as this was important for my piece of mind. He communicated with me updates on progress and worked to make sure the car was perfect for my daughter when it was finally ready to go home. All the staff that were there were very kind and helpful! If you are in the market for a used or new vehicle, I would highly recommend Bell Ford! read more

Well, back in December, I had a best car buying experience with Bell Ford, yesterday, I had the WORST Service Department experience at Bell Ford. I had made an appointment to get my one COMPLIMENTERY oil change that I was promised when I bought the truck. When I get there, my name could not be found on the list. The kid with the clipboard said that I would be taken care of even though my name was not on his list. He then said to get in the line forming for oil changes and that it would be a "few hours" before they got to me. "whoa, wait...WHAT?"...a "FEW HOURS?" This is why I made an appointment!!! He said it like it was no big deal and that it seemed like I had ALL the time in the world. I understand you're busy, but COME ON! VERY disappointed. I live in Flagstaff, so it's not like I can just get there on a whim. read more

This place is a SCAM!!!! I went in for 'the works'..that's a regular oil change and a very important fluid top off. When I got home I popped my hood and NONE of my fluid were tipped off. My radiator fluid level was at the bottom line and my power steering fluid was about 1" below the line! If I did not double check it's possible I could of gotten a cracked radiator from too much heat if the levels kept dropping, resulting in a massive fix it bill. And the steering wheel was hard to turn because the power steering fluid was so low! I had to miss some more work and bring my car in the next day. They apologized but it seems very fake. I came in for 'the works' to have all my fluids taken care of and they didn't Top off any of them!!!!!? This deserves to be reported to the BBB and attorney general because I am SURE that MANY customers are being scammed and taken advantage of by not getting their full service, resulting in catastrophic car failures. BELL FORD SUCKS!!!! NEVER TAKE YOUR CAR TO THE STEALERSHIP!!! Update: 3 weeks later: Car is leaking oil and has never dropped 1 drop. Am I seriously going to have to take the car back a 3rd time!?????? You gotta be f'ing kidding me UPDATE 4: The shop manager offered to align my wheels for me for free to make up for the lost time coming back 3-4 times for a stupid oil leak they caused that NEVER stopped. It was wobbly, so let them do the alignment and fire balance. I left feeling good but within 1 minute my CAR WAS WORSE!!!! I drove it straight to Big O with my fiancé and my 1 year old baby in shock asking the shop what's going on!!! THEY DIDN'T TIGHTEN THE LUGNUTS TO MY FRONT LEFT TIRE!!! ARE YOU YOU KIDDING!!!!???? Could of killed my entire family including myself if that tire popped off going down the street in traffic!!! All these idiots should be fired!!!! We were able to take the tire off at Big O with our HANDS!!! You could take 2 fingers with a light grasp and take all the lugs nuts of the tire. Ridiculous! read more

I am always pleased with the service department at Bell Ford. My service advisor, Lyle, and the technician working on my car were extremely efficient. I was in and out within an hour. The entire staff at Bell Ford is professional, friendly, and knowledgeable. Thank you for always making a stressful situation SO much easier! read more

What to say about bell ford. Well for starters Robert Noland was an amazing help! He was very patient and understood the budget I had in mind. We took three cars for a spin and he was very knowledgeable on each vehicle we were in. Than there's Adam Demaio, the finance man with a plan. He was a great help as well with helping us understand the warranty we got with the vehicle, the gap coverage and everything in between. I will definitely be sending anyone and everyone their way! Ask for Robert noland. I promise you won't be disappointed! read more

Bell Ford - New car who dis? - Car Dealers Near Me - Phoenix, Arizona

Bell Ford seemed nice off the bat. I have a 2020 Ford Explorer and there were a couple recalls on it. I called to schedule an appt and took a slot about a week later because I wasn't in a rush to get the recall done. My main intention was to be proactive and get the recall done before something went wrong. I was told on the phone when scheduling the apt that it would be about 48 hours to get the everything done. I dropped the car off on a Tuesday morning and it wasn't even touched by Friday. At this point, I had a rental car and decided to return it because there's no point in blindly paying for a rental and racking up a huge bill. Once I finally went in to speak with the rep I was working with on Friday afternoon, it was finally addressed on the following Monday and done in about 4 hours time. What really bothered me was that I attempted to get the car back for the weekend and I said I would bring it right back first thing Monday morning but I was told that "the car would be taken out of line and go all the way to the back." Overall, the actual labor and service was fine but the service dept was awful. If you want your car held captive for a few days, feel free to take it here! read more

I would like to start by saying this post is in regards to the service department only!!! In sales, Eli is amazing!!! Go see him, just do not get your car serviced here!!! The service dept had my car for 6 days and still could not figure out the problem! I had an appointment, but obviously that didn't matter! Mike in service told me that there were 2 cars in front of me which were big jobs...then my car would be worked on. ITS BEEN 6 DAYS!!!! How long does it take??? Then Mike told me that it would maybe be looked at in the next day or 2 (then the weekend), so we probably would not get it back until next week. UGH this service department makes me so mad. This is not the first experience, just the one that pissed me off the most. I will NEVER bring my car back here...there are other options out there. Please think twice before you waste your time here. read more

We encountered dishonesty and the typical games one sees when buying a vehicle. The salesman "forgot" to mention there are $1250.00 in incentives when I asked him for a quote...incentives I knew about. He then added almost $2200.00 in "add ons"...such as tinting the front two windows (the back ones are already tinted glass), "paint and fabric protection"...which is waxing an already waxed truck, "door" protection....the clear stickers on the door edge. I recommend you shop elsewhere. After posting my review, I decided to amend it. Look at all of the reviews on here....I did. Some are obviously written by an employee or someone writing at the request of an employee. Carefully read the others. Most of the negative reviews revolve around dishonesty and the lack of integrity on the part of the dealership. Sometimes, being honest by the dealer means they don't make as much money. An ignorant, ineffective manager will not consider the long term effects of dishonesty. Dishonesty like this can only be systemic from the top down, in my estimation. I have never purchased a vehicle from Bell Ford... and after this, I never will. read more

-100 A fourth update: this place should be put under ALL new management. We informed service we could not pick up the truck during the time they were open and they told us they would pick the keys and paperwork inside of an envelope and inside the truck and we could pick it up when we could. Then they called us to collect payment, we did not owe any money because it was 1. a recalled part and 2. we purchased warranty. They laughed and said whoops. We went to pick up our truck, were greeted by security and informed them our keys AND paperwork were inside the truck. THEY WERENT. Where the heck are our keys? Security accused us of STEALING OUR OWN TRUCK. We left. My big question to Bell Ford, aka Kimberly, Andrew, and the many others who care more about their ratings than they do about actually providing quality work. Andrew, Kimberly, and others, I told you all my brakes did not work from the moment I purchased the truck. You made me out to be a fool, saying everything was fine, yet when the part was recalled, your techs DID find it was malfunctioning. My truck had been serviced for the brakes AT LEAST three times prior to that. If your techs DO the 130 point inspection, then how was this not caught? I do not think this company completed a proper inspection on my truck. I would not be surprised if there are MANY other malfunctions that have not been caught because they cut corners. I mean, they once didnt reattach the plastic cover underneath my truck after an oil change. If they can not properly perform an oil change, something I, as a woman who service consistently belittled, know how to do, then I wouldnt trust them with your vehicle. When i purchased my truck I had called ford corporate and asked for someone from Ford to be present at the time of my inspection, Kimberly convinced me they would take care of me, and not to call in Ford. I regret not moving forward with Ford corporate because this dealership can not be trusted. I could write so much more, but I am leaving it here. Please read the other reviews to get a full story of how this company is manipulative. Also, for the record, I am not a Karen, I was kind every time I spoke with Bell Ford, and I did not throw a fit, or cause a scene. Unlike them, I have common decency and human kindness. read more

Horrible!! My vehicle has at least five recalls on it which they are legally supposed to fix free of charge and they refuse to do it .. instead, they send me an estimated bill for almost $5,000! When I refuse any further BS from these people , he then tried to charge me $300 for the estimate ! After explaining that I would not be charged for anything unless they did any kind of service, he then lied to me and said that the $300 would be coming out of the service advisors pocket .. my father ran a car dealership for 25 years and believe me, that is not how it works .. they are liars and will try to rip you off any chance they get if they think you're stupid enough to believe their BS . Do not go here!! By the way, all the Ford focuses involved in these recalls are also involved in a huge lawsuit which I happily and taking advantage of .. see you in court! :-) read more

Service department is the worst I've ever been to. Car was returned filthy on the outside, had oily finger prints throughout the inside and tool marks on inside windshield. Communication was terrible as well, even with the so called service manager that does not return calls. Take your Ford anywhere but here! read more

absolutely the worst dealership to go to. they are not willing to even try to get you out of a vehicle and into a new one and if you aren't willing to put up a down payment they will say and I quote "well go save up some paychecks and come back", definitely my worst dealership experience I've had read more

There's a reason why they have a 2.5 star yelp rating and 19 better business bureau complaints. I will never buy another Ford, much less a vehicle from Bell Ford. I purchased a brand new Mach E, and traded in a Mercedes. I'm pretty sure they've never handled a Mercedes trade in. I literally had to walk them through the process, conferencing them in with Mercedes Financial Services multiple times... they then decided to send the payoff to Mercedes of Arrowhead vs MBFS. When it finally arrived, it was over 3 weeks late, I ended up having to make a payment on a car I hadn't had for nearly a month, including a late fee. I just can't believe how inept they were during the entire process. These guys are real scum bags... no one takes ownership, and always blaming someone else for the error. Also, the brand new Mach E had to go in the shop 3 days after purchase. There's a reason why I've been a loyal Mercedes customer for years... don't let a smooth talking salesman fool you about how they are family owned, care about people, etc... at the end of the day, all they want is your money. I will tell every person I know not to give them their business. Edit to this review. Today I received my license plate. I told them that I was not purchasing the car unless they transferred my personalized plate. The paperwork was completed but someone in the office decided that I didn't want my personalized license plate, changed it, refunded the personalization fee, and now my plate is no longer available. I had this plate for 20+ years. The incompetence is astounding. I literally hate everything about this place. If I can make one person change their mind about a vehicle purchase, I feel like I've at least made an impact. I will be adding their 20th better business bureau complaint. read more

I was about 50 miles outside of Phoenix and my SUV was just not doing what it should normally do. I sweet talked my car more lovingly than I've ever spoken to a lover. It made it to the hotel and I immediately went online and made a Monday appointment at Bell Ford to get it looked at. Their online appointment setting is incredibly efficient. It was so easy to set up. When I arrived at 7:30 in the morning they were expecting me and new my vehicle and myself by name. It was great. I had to get all of my spark plugs replaced. Not a cheap fix but it did the job so that I could drive the 800 some odd miles back home to the Bay Area. While the online appointment setting and the meet and greet was impressive, the actual face to face service was lacking. I can only describe it as slow and weird. When I came in to get my car I walked in and many people were working and milling about. They looked at me so I knew they knew I was there. I smiled and said hello to quite a few people but no one actually acknowledged me. I stood there and finally said out loud, "Nothing? No one is going to help me?" They didn't move. It was bizarre. It finally took the porter guy who remembered me when I dropped off to say hi to me and he went and got my service rep. Who admittedly was not there when I walked in. But someone should say "Hi, how can I help you", or something? Weird, but they did their job. Hook up the online appointment service. It works great. read more

I was going to delete this negative review, but instead have opted to update. Finally, after a couple of weeks of frustration, the dealership came through and did what they promised. I wouldn't have been nearly as upset with the delays and push-offs if someone, anyone, from the dealership would have followed through or kept me informed on why there were delays or even simply returned a call as promised. In the end we got all of the things we were promised and I do really love the little car. The GM called personally and let me know they were going to fix the issues I was having, so there is that. I wasn't prepared to buy a car when I stopped by the first time, so some of the fault was mine because I didn't have my car title available. However, I still feel an update call or return call would not have been too much to ask. read more

Had a great experience with Anthony in Service. He was thorough and to the point about any issues I had with my vehicle. Definitely make sure you ask for Anthony when your making an appointment. No hassling and very friendly! -Jason read more

Had Harris as my rep. Everything went as planned. Appreciate the good service. Thank you.

Lee Spencer general manager of Belford of Arizona got caught lying and reinstalling broken parts in a brand new Ford platinum pickup truck he admitted what he did but does not want to settle with me I'm out $2000 he only wants to offer me a 1000 I told him I don't discount for liars buyers beware Lee Spencer is a crook read more

Everything is wrong here. Was supposed to have my truck by 3pm. Call at 330, they hadn't even started. Got the run around. The one thing I did ask for - air filter - wasn't done. Icing on the cake - the COVID measures I was promised, none are actually taken. No plastic, no disinfectant... no way will I be back. read more

Low life scammers. Do not recommend, and forfeit your hard earned money to this business at you own risk. Suggested that I flush my transmission fluid out; but I had to remind them that Bell Ford did this a year ago. Suggested that I have my brakes changed; but told them that I had the brakes changed less than 2k miles ago. Suggested that I change my battery, which is less than 3 years old and working strong. read more

if we could give them a zero stars we would! they have had our brand new 22 broncho for six weeks!! first they replaced the electronics but that didn't help. now telling us it is the fuel lines and not under warranty!! $5k repair total. can prove we did not use e85 gas and then they blamed it on the gas station. all that ruins are warranty. replaced all fuel lines and injectors. still did not run and then replaced spark plugs and now working weeks later. probably just spark plugs all along but did not start with that!! after more than two weeks set up a rental car (not a loaner) and forgot to mention it was for only 10 days ! -heard from enterprise after 7 days of being responsible for those days!! terrible frustrating experience especially because not from arizona there on business- still waiting today for car to be repaired!! go somewhere else. use the service department at your own risk!!! when car broke down this is where they towed the car. not from arizona so did not know any better. the service and communication is awful! no loaner car offered and told they did not have any available so 6 weeks without a car. read more

After months of searching for a vehicle, Alex Murillo identified two that met my criteria and we scheduled a test drive. From the moment I arrived for the test drive, I knew it was a mistake. Instead of focusing on the criteria that was important to me, which I communicated with him multiple times, he focused heavily on the entertainment and tech features of the vehicle, which were not priorities for me. After signing the paperwork, part of the transaction included me returning the next day to collect the vehicle and drop off my trade. From the time I left to the next day, Alex was keen to text me to remind me he was there and waiting. It was obnoxious. Two days later, there was a mechanical issue and my husband returned the vehicle to the dealership to resolve ... he also told them the rear struts were really bad. They responded that they knew about the struts (they ordered them before the sale was done) but forgot to mention that. Sorry, but that information should have been disclosed early on. I previously purchased from Bell Ford in 2019 and it was great. Unfortunately, this recent experience was awful. read more

For a car dealership this place is awesome! I've been coming here to buy cars and get my car worked on for the last several years. The sales people here don't pressure you the second you walk in like most other dealerships do. I recommend talking Robert if you want to buy a car. Super chill, laid back guy, and very knowledgeable. The service department is also good although they are usually a little bit backed up so I definitely recommend calling ahead and getting an appointment. If you ever have any problems with anything reach out to Kimberly Lucas. She's fantastic at getting any issues you may have resolved. I've tried all the other valley dealerships and highly recommend Bell Ford over them all! read more

We had taken our Ford engine Motorhome to several places including two other Ford dealerships and none of them could figure out how to do the oil change we needed. Everyone at Bell were so nice and took really good care of us and our Motorhome. We had a service light come on a while back but it went away, so we had them run diagnostics but when they found nothing there was no charge We also felt the charge for the oil change was very reasonable. Thanks everyone! read more

Adam Archando is phenominal. The best auto sales representative. i am 70 years old, and have purchased many vehicles over my life span. Adam is the best. I recently purchased another vehicle from another Ford dealer in the east valley (I won't mention the dealer name). The service at that Ford dealer was acceptable but not fabulous, and as it turned out, I was not happy with that vehicle. Bell Ford was different. I've never been treated so good as Adam Archambo treated me. He worked the numbers, got me a low interest rate, and he was able to make a generous trade for me. Adam made it possible to get me into another vehicle I was comfortable with. I live in east Mesa area, and Adam did the whole deal over the phone. He drove the new vehicle to my house, and picked up the vehicle I was unhappy with, and he made the trade easy and simple. I will be a forever customer to Bell Ford. If Adam is an example of the other employees, Bell Ford is second to none. Thanks again Adam, for being so professional, and taking your time to explain everything I needed to know about the vehicle you sold me. I appreciate that very much. read more

My husband just finally got a new motor put in his car after FOUR times having to bring his car back because of Bell Fords either 1)total incompetence 2)scamming us for more money. We took his car to another mechanic and from the FIRST time he told us it was the motor, yet for some reason Bell Ford managed to diagnose (INCORRECTLY) something else happening THREE times until we called Ford directly and made a complaint. The only reason we took it there was because it was supposed to be under warranty - BUT because they messed up so many times it put us past the mileage of Warranty even though it was their fault that it was not being fixed properly. They then refused to refund the money that we paid because of their mistakes and tried to charge us for the new motor. I will NEVER come back to this disgusting establishment. YOU SUCK read more

Wow! I absolutely loveee this dealership! My fiancee and i were searching for a car and met a gentle man name Michael Honea, this guy right here is like top notch #1 in this dealership! This guy was not your typical dealer guy who pressures you to buy a car, this guy here makes it happen! He helps you out with an awesome price! Monthly price and hes such a hearted person! If anyone is going to bell ford ASK for Michael, i promise you, you would not regret it. I left happily with a turbo ford focus st for such a CRAZY price and monthly! This dealership will top ANY other ford dealer guaranteed! Thanks Michael!!!!!! read more

Bell Ford - My freaking amazing car thanks to Michael Honea!!! - Car Dealers Near Me - Phoenix, Arizona

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I went online to look at convertible Mustangs. I found one I liked at Bell Ford. I put all my information on their website and I was called immediately by Michael Young the internet sales and leasing consultant. Michael then emailed me. I replied to the email. Michael said the Mustang I was interested in was available and asked when I could come to Bell Ford. I told him today and he gave me an appointment time. I drove to Bell Ford for my appointment and met Michael. He wanted to appraise my trade but I asked to see the Mustang first. He said ok and went to a computer. He asked me to wait a minute and he went outside. I assumed he was going to get the car. He came back 5 minutes later and said he didn't have the car, it had been sent to auction. I said, you told me the car was here and asked me to drive all the way out here. Michael Young's reply was, "I told you it was available, not that it was here." The worst customer service I've ever had at any retailer, ever! I walked out and he didn't even bother to offer to find me another similar car. I drove to Camelback Ford and the WHOLE staff worked to find me the car I wanted even though they didn't have it at their store. I will be going back to Camelback Ford to buy my car tomorrow. Don't give Bell Ford your business. Drive a few miles further to Camelback Ford and buy there. read more

Bell Ford - Car Dealers Near Me - Phoenix, Arizona

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I brought my car in for routine maintenance and a recall. my advisor Dan D was awesome. he promised my car would be done within a couple hours and then he called an hour later saying everything was done. that never happens. read more

Dirt bag dealer. Friend ordered a new Bronco. They basically stole his order because they can! Run don't walk away from this dealer. You have better choices. "No it is our Bronco even though he put the deposit down and ordered it through FORD as was the procedure. FORD isn't much better because they allow this happen then protects the dealer and looks the other way! read more

I scheduled a service appointment online, detailing what needed to be done (CO recall - which should only take a few hours) to my Explorer during the appointment. I arrived at my scheduled dropoff time, only to be told that they were extremely busy and would not be able to service my vehicle that day. Why book an appointment? I spoke to a Service Advisor who told me to bring it in the following week, and he would make sure to take care of me same day as I needed the car back by the end of day. So I returned last week as instructed. That Advisor was busy, so a different Advisor reviewed the information with me and took my keys. I stressed that I needed the car back by 4pm. At 3:50pm I call looking for my Advisor who is busy. Everybody else that picks up my call on hold doesn't want to help me, they keep putting me back on hold for that Advisor. I arrive at the service area at 4:15pm, and the Advisor can't find my paperwork. I'm not in the system. Can't find my keys. MY KEYS! So off he goes looking, finally another Advisor jumps in to help look for my keys and my car on the lot. After standing around for over 30 minutes, at 4:50pm I finally see my car driving up and the Service Manager decides to head outside to see what is going on. The Advisor apologized, I told him that I was thankful he at least found my car and then I hopped in my car and drove off. I did not single out the Service Advisor's name because from all the mayhem I saw in the service department during my 30+ minute wait, I doubt all of the departmental issues are because of him. read more

I have a 2019 Ford f350 bought new. Took it to Bell ford when I got the letter about the steering damper. They said it wasn't a problem and wouldn't fix it under the bulletin I received. Yesterday on the I-10 overpass to the 101 I experienced the death wobble. This if terrifying enough without being 50ft above ground with 6 lanes coming together. Now I will have to take it back to another dealer to get this fixed. It could have been fixed already but Bell ford doesn't care about peoples lives. Ford should liable for every bit of this. It scared the living crap out of me. Bell ford will never see me again and will trash them anytime I can. They had my truck 3 days and did nothing when I had an appointment. How do you stay in business with customer service that is nonexistent? read more

These people are Complete idiots. What part of "" take me off your calling list""" don't they get? I've written and left messages with the gm, sales managers etc. they don't get it. I would NEVER BUY a car from these con artists. Calling me about a car I haven't owned for over two years........... do I want to trade it in? Yes sure...... ridiculous. read more

We went to Bell Ford, to look at a fairly expensive truck. Talked to the sales guy, and proceeded to take a test drive, with said truck, it had less than 5 miles in the tank, and not even a "hey wait a sec, let me go grab a gas card". Really? Sales guy, proceeded to bash practically everyone in there. "I'm going to be honest with you guys, I don't like so and so, and so and so, etc." Bell Ford was very inflexible with the MSRP price, so we went somewhere else, where we could deal a bit more. read more