My wife and I did the zip line tour on Sat 9 /10. It was incredible, however what made it special was our guides Jeff and Andrew! Brothers from another mother as soon as we started...awesome 4wd tour just to the zips. Weather was beautiful. We learned a lot about the history and had several other great conversations as well.. Real bonus.. We were the only ones on the tour! DTR, give those fellas a raise! They so represented what is magical about this resort... Remember Jeff and Andrew, KELLI SAID! read more

This review is for Hex restaurant at Devil's Thumb Ranch. First, let me say my family and I have always loved Devil's Thumb Ranch. My wife and I were married at Devil's Thumb 7 years ago and since then we always look forward to spending summer afternoons and evenings at the ranch whenever we return to Winter Park. For some reason, Devil's Thumb decided to change everything at Hex restaurant, the main gathering place to dine at the ranch (there is a formal, somewhat stuffy restaurant at the Ranch House but that is very expensive and normally hit or miss). Unfortunately, Hex is now TERRIBLE. Whoever decided on the new format, menu, staffing levels, etc, obviously knows NOTHING about how to properly run a restaurant or resort. Devil's Thumb used to be such an amazing place for families and friends to gather to enjoy great food and the outdoors. Not anymore. The new menu stinks. There are no entrees and only really bad appetizers available to order. Also, forget about taking your kids to Devil's Thumb because there is absolutely no kids menu. My 2 year old isn't exactly a picky eater but he wouldn't touch any of the crap Hex is now serving. To make matters worse, the service is abominable. Our poor waitress even apologized in advance right when we sat down saying everything has changed for the worse, there was nothing really good to eat, and it would probably take forever to get our drinks and lame appetizers because management got rid of all the staff. Well, after 30 minutes of waiting with no drinks and food, she proved herself right. What a JOKE!! I can understand the food taking a little longer, but we didn't even get our cocktails after waiting 30 minutes!!! We finally called our waitress over to the table, cancelled everything, returned to our car and went to Deno's for an awesome meal. Lesson learned....if you want a great night out in Winter Park, DON'T go the Devil's Thumb. Go to Deno's, Tabernash Tavern, or even Randi's (yes Randi's is now 100 times better than Devil's Thumb and that makes me very sad). Come on Devil's Thumb...take the thumb out of your a$* and fix the mess you've created at Hex so we can all enjoy your wonderful resort once again! read more

This place is beautiful, in a great area. Which is why I didn't really expect to pay $350 per night to be locked in a prison. Pool closes at 9:00, bar closes at 11:00. Which is fine, except for the fact you're in a remote area that has no other options. I'm sure my parents would love staying here, so they can get to bed on time, and read. But if you're looking for a place to enjoy yourself, it's the most un-accommodating place I've ever stayed. Oh, and they only have 4 tv stations, so once the "lights out" is ordered on the resort, you can't even watch TV. It's hell, it must be why it's called the devils thumb. read more

My husband and I spent a long weekend here in January for our 10th Anniversary and had an amazing time! We had a room in the new High Lonesome lodge which I highly recommend! It was quiet and peaceful, but still just a short walk from everything. The room was stunning with wood floors and a vaulted ceiling with wooden beams. The bed was extremely comfortable, although there were excessive decorative throw pillows we had to find places to store. The bathroom was amazing! Large soaking tub and roomy spa like shower. We also enjoyed the private patio with rockers. I agree with other reviews that a coat hanger in the entry of the room would have been a nice convenience. After a day of skiing it was awkward finding a place to set our wet coats. Housekeeping was good and included turn down service if you wish. We spent a day cross country skiing on their beautiful trails and found the staff at the ski rental shop very pleasant and helpful. The cost of a trail pass is a little high considering how much you are already spending to stay at the ranch. I wish they gave people staying on site a better deal, but the rental equipment was new and in great condition and they maintain the trails beautifully. We really, really enjoyed the outdoor heated pool (indoor entry) and hot tub after a long day of skiing! I also enjoyed a few hours at the Ranch Creek spa one afternoon, which was busy, but still felt tranquil. Everyone was very attentive and professional. I chose the "road to wellness" package and thoroughly enjoyed it. A splurge well worth it! As far as on site dining, the Ranch House was phenomenal. The Wagyu beef was another splurge well worth it. It was possibly the best steak we have ever had (and we have had a decent amount of prime beef and Kobe beef in our life). We also had a scallop dish and mole rubbed pork belly that was delicious. Save room for dessert if you can! It did not disappoint! Fantastic wine list as well. My husband is a beer drinker so I really appreciate quality wine by the glass options. Service was equally amazing, very attentive without being annoying. Can't think of a single complaint for our experience at the Ranch House. We ate at Heck's for both dinner once and breakfast once. This is definitely a more family friendly environment. The food was pretty good, a bit overpriced but not surprising for an on site restaurant. Service was an issue however. While the wait staff was pleasant when around, they were slow and hard to track down. Water glasses sat empty for a long time, requests for condiments went unfulfilled, and we had to go to the bar to get silverware. We couldn't figure out if they were just understaffed or confused/poorly trained. Honestly we wished we had just gone back to the Ranch House for dinner again because it was such a great experience! The coffee shop was a nice option for a quick breakfast. We tried the game room area briefly after dinner one night to shoot some pool, but this area is definitely geared for kids. Great for families, just not what we had in mind to relax with a drink. We opted to sit outdoors by a fire instead. The fire pit outside of high lonesome lodge was actually off one evening when we were hoping to sit by it, but we just called the front desk and they very quickly and pleasantly came out to restart it for us. I was impressed by that. I have read mixed reviews of the staff at Devils Thumb but our experience with everyone (except for the painfully slow service at Heck's) was really great and what you expect from a higher end resort. We can't wait to go back!!!! read more

We had a wonderful dinner at Heck's Tavern at Devils Thumb Ranch and Resort while dropping our son off at camp. Best part, we were seated by a prime window with a glorious view. This often does not happen when we dine with Our son as he is disabled . Thanks to the staff who treated all of us so well. The great food was even better with the service we received . read more

Amazing views, delicious food, horrible service as always. We've been here multiple times and the place is spectacular, but you really need to be prepared - their poor service is legendary. The employees simply do not care. Everything from slow service to wrong orders to snarky waiters are all part of the cost of this otherwise world class resort. read more

no happy hour, prices way to high even for ranch grown beef(BY OUNCE), small portions. total focused on corporate customers. Get the feeling locals not wanted. nice view read more

This review is for Stacy Horn, in particular, and also generally about DTR. We were going to get married at DTR, and I LOVED working with Stacy. She was SO great about always answering my ridiculously long emails (with numbered lists!), and she was so fun and funny. We went to DTR in October, in anticipation of our March wedding, and we gave our deposit. We had tons of fun on the beautiful trails and grounds. I loved the bed, too!! So comfy. The Ranch is pretty reasonable, too. We also enjoyed the food at the restaurant (Not Heck's--which has great atmosphere but food at the other on site restaurant is really great!). Unfortunately, when we drove home it snowed, and I realized I could not put my guests through that in March! Most would have been fine but elderly out of towners would not have loved a snowy mountain road, so I contacted Stacy and begged her to help. She was SO gracious and immediately refunded our deposit. So many vendors would have been so difficult--especially with the amount of time she had already spent helping. I would HIGHLY recommend DTR and Stacy for a wedding! Even a winter wedding. It's like a fairy tale. We just have some elderly guests, so the drive was too dangerous. But I could tell it would have been so wonderful. Thanks, Stacy!!!! read more

We came here for the Happy Hour they put on and it was great (M-Th). We organized a big group of folks (wedding guests) as a sort of meet and greet. We did reserve space and although we would have loved to take advantage of the porch area with the great view, it was closed for another private event. Bummer! In any case, we had a great time- the $1 beers are good beers (microbrews, local beers, etc.) and the food was excellent. Our waiter was on top of things, which reflects extremely well when you have a group of 20+ folks and one waiter: friendly, knowledgeable and responsive. The dining room staff (hostess?) was a bit rigid and was polite, but not friendly (she used up one of the rating stars). But otherwise, I've got to give it a solid 4. I'd go back again for sure. read more

This review is specifically for the spa. I wanted to share my great experience with Christina at Devils Thumb spa. She's extremely knowledgeable and professional it was one of the best facials I've ever had. I would recommend her and wish you only live closer to the East Coast!!! Thank you Christina I will be back next summer I thoroughly enjoyed both facials this past summer season!! Kelly L read more

Was a guest at Devil's Thumb Ranch over MLK weekend for a wedding that I was in. The property was picturesque and very well maintained. The rooms were large comfortable and had incredible bathroom and views. The only downsides were the walls were incredibly thin so you could hear conversations in other rooms just by walking down the hallways and there was no cell service or reliable wi-fi available. There was an amazing coffee shop on site that made amazing lattes. During the course of the weekend I also took advantage of their guided snowshoeing activity which was a lot of fun. Would definitely return here for a winter getaway in the future. read more

I photograph weddings at Devil's Thumb a few times a year and it's due time I leave this one-of-a-kind property a five star review! Surrounded with panoramic views of the Rocky Mountains, the setting is incredible, everyone is friendly and always going out of their way to see that every guest has an unforgettable quintessential Colorado experience. Kayla, the wedding sales manager, is top notch, she is a pleasure to work with and super efficient at seeing that each wedding is going off without a hitch. Our couples love the option to incorporate the horses or miniature donkeys in their photos (which is a blast!) and we always have the best experience at the stables. Anthony took our couple for a sleigh ride and was such a sweetheart. He went out of his way to see that the Bride & Groom's expectations were exceeded. The wedding and event staff is a well-oiled machine, always providing a flawless experience for the Bride & Groom and their guests! read more

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My visit to Devils Thumb Ranch was incredible ! We went up to the Oktoberfest and had a great time! 25 brewers and a lot of great food! We stayed two wonderful nights, we enjoyed our stay so much we reserved the 4 bedroom cabin over the Christmas holiday. read more

We recently had dinner at the Ranch Restaurant at Devil's Thumb Ranch. It was for my father-in-law's 80th birthday and we brought a cake along to surprise him and asked if they would bring it out after dinner. To our surprise, they were going to charge $4.50/pp to cut the cake since we brought it in ourselves. We thought this was tacky considering the amount they were going to make off our dinner...and considering our waitress told us we were her only table for the night. The food is good but not great...it's more the view and setting which made our celebration. Too bad they're so set on making money instead of memories, and going "above and beyond" for their customers. I probably won't go back to the restaurant for a special occasion again...what a bummer! read more

My wife, daughter, and I stayed in a lodge room for 3 nights. The positives were a helpful, responsive staff and great access to fun activities. The negatives were (1) dirty room floor on check-in ; (2) mattress pad and mattress on 1 bed that were stained with blood and urine (even 2 of the staff agreed this was disgusting). They did not change the mattress. They just flipped it and replaced the mattress pad. ; (3) not having our room cleaned on the 2nd day while we were gone and having to call guest services to get it cleaned late in the day ; (4) a broken reading lamp, which was fixed after we called ; (5) room with 2 double beds had a very small living area and there were a lot of decorative pillows on the beds we had find a place for every day. Overall not what I would expect for $350/night. The staff member (to whom I showed a picture of the stained mattress) at check-out did say "I am extremely sorry." but nothing else was done. We would ski there again but I would never stay in the lodge again. I have had a cleaner room at a Motel 6. read more

hands down one of the worst resorts in Colorado. Service was absolutely terrible with zero enthusiasm for us being there. This place was so unprofessional. One of their workers had told us that they were cheating him out of his overtime... It was all around a mess and an experience i wish i could otherwise just take back. Chef Marc at High Lonesome was the WORST chef we have ever had and was nothing but disrespectful. I suggest saving your money and just not going at all. read more

We had booked a room for a wedding close by this resort. When we booked the room back in January we were told we were in the main hotel. When we arrived on the scheduled date at 3:30 pm we were told our room wasn't ready yet. We wandered around the grounds while we waited and returned to the front desk at 4:30 then we were told the room we had originally booked was no longer available because a large wedding party had booked a block of rooms and we had been bumped from our reservation. The only available room was 2 miles down the road called the Bunkhouse. The Bunkhouse was a complete joke the amenities included no TV in the room, a dirty bathroom...the shower had mold along the base and sprayed more water out of the shower than getting you wet. I felt like I was on a Griswald vacation. We had originally booked two night but after one night we moved to another location and decided to drive to the wedding rather that spend another overpriced night at the Bunkhouse. After screwing us out of our original reservations I think we should have been comp'ed a night or even a damn meal but they just shrugged their shoulders and said it happens sometimes. I would never return nor recommend this location to anyone. read more

One of the worst experiences I have had. Stayed at the bunk house. Appears ok at first until you realize that you can hear your next door neighbor sneeze, every word of their conversation and footsteps. The thermostat doesn't work and the room was a sweltering 75 degrees all night. The bunk house is two miles from the main lodge and I feel like a step child. Really, we paid to feel this way? Checking out early so we can get some real rest and relaxation. read more

need to figure out your air conditioning situation because some of your guests enjoy sleeping in a room below 75 degrees

Devils Thumb is a beautiful place, we go there for the nordic skiing, can't afford to stay there. We were disappointed that they are now charging $9 for 1 beer. Sad to say we will probably not be going there for apres skiing anymore. read more

The venue is beautifully arranged but honestly it is all about the money. Don't go there if youre not yuppy.

I recently did a wedding at the Ranch. While the ranch is a lovely venue, I would never recommend it to a client for the following reasons: 1) They nickel and dime to a point of exasperation! 2) If you are looking for a facility that goes the "extra mile" this isn't it. 3) For the amount of money that's spent, you get very little service in return. 4) They won't give an inch. 5) The bridal suite wasn't cleaned up and ready for the couple on their return. My florist needed an extension cord and they said they'd have to bill for it! they cut the musicians off from playing the 30 min. prelude because "it wasn't in their contract". They wouldn't help move chairs because they weren't being paid. They charge a very high fee for delivering welcome bags and wouldn't distribute at the front desk when guest checked in. I've worked at many of the top venues in the state and have never run into the service and attitude given here. Unless you have a pocket full of money, ready to spend at every turn, this probably isn't the place for you. read more

Ok the good. Place looks stunning great property and the grounds are amazing. The bad, they nickel and dime you for every service possible. For example they charge $10 for a trail pass to walk the grounds. The really bad, it takes them FOREVER to serve food they are severely under staffed and if you want to eat in a timely manner good luck...it ain't happening. read more

Ambiance and location are wonderful. And five years back the Ranch Houde Restaurant was every bit a five star restaurant. Two visits with the current executive chef has proven consistently disappointing. The tasting menu highlights the deficiencies. The duck salad dish featured dry duck-over a bed of dry undressed greens. The scallop dish was well presented but over cooked. The salad my dinner companion had was overdressed and dripping with dressing. While the elk filet with winter vegetables was tasty and well presented, it's been on the menu for several seasons now. The dessert of a cinnamon bun-ice cream and apple looked great but the bun was cold and stale. Had it been warm it would have really been a hit. When a summary of this was conveyed to our server, it was the last time we saw him for the night and no offer of accommodation by the restaurant was made. Beautiful spot that was uninspired and masks mediocrity by being in a special place. Go for a drink. Skip dinner. A !a Scott gives this two stars because the price point for very mediocre food was quite high. And this is a second disappointing trip here in four years. read more

Thanksgiving Dinner for eight on 11/22/12. Seated 20 minutes late despite having a reservation. Waitress totally non-attentive - worst I've seen in 59 years on the planet. Took 20 minutes to be recognized, appetizers arrived after one hour. Entrees after 1.5 hours!! Had to speak to the Manager to get drinks or wine. When the food arrived the lobster (paid $20 extra for each of them) was severely undercooked - consistency of raw squid. Wife went the bathroom to throw up after trying to eat it. Entire dinner took 2.5 hours. When confronted over it, the manager gave us a $130 "manager's discount" off the $790 bill but still charged us 20% Service Fee ($127). Nice establishment/setting run by village idiots. read more

The facilities at DTR are absolutely beautiful outside and in. We were there for a wedding which to my knowledge went off without a hitch and was absolutely beautiful. The only complaints that we have are the way that the ranch handled the payment and reservation portion on the visit. They were unclear on the way we would be charge for the room, we had thought they had charged the full amount for the stay prior to us checking out and we were surprised by a secondary charge after we had checked out. Also the furniture in the bunkhouse where we stayed seemed as if it hadn't been replaced in years. Other than that it was a great experience. read more

We stayed here for my brothers wedding and the place was gorgeous, bar none. Sadly, I do have to say the wedding help was non existent during the set-up. The rehearsal was screwed up and the location had to be moved at the last minute- it was left up the the couple to figure out. I do have to say that the dinner in the barn was amazing and seemed to run smoothly. We were to have a Thank you brunch on Sunday in Hecks Tavern, well the staff didn't know anything about it. Needless to say, the service and food took forever. Alot of us had flights out that morning and it messed us up waiting for food. I'd be weary to have my wedding here, luckily my brother and his fiance are very laid back. Hopefully the owners can get this fixed, so they will be here in years to come. Great place, just needs improvement in staff. read more

Went to Hecks for hh about a week ago. Had a few $2 23oz beers. The next round I ordered a pint (they used to be $1 for hh, we hadnt been to hh here in a little bit). After a few of these we get our bill and are shocked that they were charging us full price ($6) for the pints. I should have noticed that $1 pints were no longer on the hh menu but also feel that the waitstaff should have informed us. Why would I pay $6 for 16oz when I can get 23oz for $2??? They did clear it up on the bill by charging $2 for those pints (although if u do the math I still lost 7oz of beer for each pint). Other than this every experience here has been great read more

Spa was not friendly and nothing worked. Hot tub closed, steam room broken, broken shower arm They put a diffuser in a rooms d called it 'aroma therapy'. Not worth the money and not a good spa experience. read more

My recent stay at The Devil's Thumb Ranch was nothing short of exceptional. The secluded scenery and crisp fresh air were worth the trip in itself. I found myself dining in Heck's, a wonderful restaurant with a great menu and a warm earthy feel. The restaurant had a beautiful center fireplace to enjoy and the food was simply amazing. Whether it was early in the morning or late at night, I always found the Ranch and staff to be accommodating to my needs. The Nordic trails were fun and challenging (I'm a beginner) and resulted in my frequent spa visits. The spa was a slice of heaven filled with natural light and dimmed rooms for massages. The massage therapist, I think her name was Rainey, was amazing and released every tense muscle in my body. Overall, the experience opened my soul to nature and helped me find a much needed equilibrium outside of the daily grind of work and family. I am very much looking forward to seeing what the spring season has to offer at the Ranch and how it will once again refresh my spirit. -Bryan read more

Six of us on a ski vacation at Winter Park/Mary Jane enjoyed one of the most delicious, well serviced meal in our many experiences at resorts and elsewhere. While on the expensive side for the area of Colorado, the price fixe at $59 was a bargain for the quality of the food, its presentation and and the service. From amuse bouche and foccacia bread to Thai butternut squash soup to elk sirloin and bison tenderloin to Rocky Mountain trout and vegetarian paella the tastes were delicious. We wholeheartedly recommend our experience to others. read more

Wow. Wow. Wow. My boyfriend and I recently visited DTR for our 4 year anniversary. The resort came highly recommended to us by friends and we decided to give it a whirl since neither of us had ever been to the Winter Park side of Colorado. We booked a few months in advance, to save up for the activities and vacation we had in mind. Make no mistake, it is not cheap, but with good planning it is well worth every penny. When we arrived, we pulled up to check in and were instantly greeted by two very friendly door men who came straight to our car with a luggage cart and helped us inside. The check-in was quick and the clerk was friendly and informative. When we entered our room, we were amazed. The lodge itself is beautiful and rustic, and is built and run in a very 'green' manor. Our room was luxurious, from the cozy fireplace, to the large deck, to the lush bedding. ( I actually asked if they sell their sheets there. They don't. :( We went to Heck's restaurant for dinner, and because it was Superbowl Sunday and we had no reservation, we weren't able to be sat there. No worries! They let us still order off the Happy Hour menu (20 minutes before) and take our drinks with us to our room while we waited for them to bring our food to us. About an hour after we finished eating, the hostess called and said that she noticed we were overcharged for a few things and that she was so sorry and those items would be on them. Great service! And the food was delicious!!! After an amazing snowmobile tour the next day, we came back to Hecks and cozied up by the fireplace for Happy Hour. Again, the service and food was great, and they had a guy playing acoustic guitar. So cozy. We went down to the lower level, where we found a large and new game room....with a free bowling alley. We bowled and went back up to our room, where a couple staff members were waiting to 'turn down our bed, fluff our pillows, and bring us delicious cookies.' Here is where we turned for the worse. The next morning, we had the delicious coffee and breakfast wraps at their coffeehouse, and the BEST massages we have ever had at their beautiful spa. Here's where it turned for the worse. On our part. That night, I woke up with 104 degree fever, and severe body aches. Pretty sure I had the flu. In the morning, our car wouldn't start. So, here I am, stranded with the flu, and no car...tucked back in the mountains about 6 miles from the main road. The staff was amazing, making sure our room stayed stocked with tea, and having our car towed to the local mechanic. That night, we had THE BEST steaks we have ever had from Heck's (Peppered Steak) and in the morning, one of the staff members gave us a ride into town to pick up our car. We drove home and mourned the end of our wonderful time there. In fact, we have decided to use our tax returns to book another 3 day trip there before the special is up at the end of May. It was amazing from beginning to end. And we decided that week to eventually have our wedding there, as we want all of our friends and family to experience it. Just remember, it is a 5 star resort, so if you're expecting Motel 6 prices, don't go. And I would recommend taking FULL advantage of their ammenities...including the spa! Have Fun!!! read more

Sub Par! I went to a wedding this past weekend at Devil's Thumb Ranch and the venue was absolutely beautiful. The Rooms were perfect and very clean. The Front Desk more than helpful and made great recommendations on the best places to go in the town. The Tabernash Tavern was fantastic.The Banquet Staff was very attentive and always made sure I had a full drink. The bland mac and cheese at cocktail hour tasted like frozen stouffers. The Vegetable Spring Rolls were delicious! The Entrees lacked flavor and were underwhelming. With the beautiful setting and highly rated reviews It must have been an off night. read more

Wow, what a treat to stay here. We attended a wedding in October and this place was wonderful. The staff could not have been more friendly and sincere. The rooms have so much character and the whole resort is just beautiful. I would highly recommend staying here if you get a chance! read more

Visiting here today was a real treat. As a pair of CO natives, we were surprised to have not known about this place. We were looking to snowshoe while in WP and this seemed to have good options. We called a couple times and everyone was very friendly and able to give us plenty of information. We came in early this morning and were helped with rentals and given a trail map to go out and get going, the process was incredibly easy. We chose to do the Moose Stomp trail which goes out around the stables and to the top of a great lookout point. We were told it was a bit of a climb, but nobody seemed to have done the trail themselves before...(this was an underestimate, it's a pretty steep climb in my opinion, especially at the end. Also, nobody knew how long the trail was, and it is about 5 miles round trip, took us 2.5 hours) would highly recommend if you do this trek to bring water and pack a lunch so you can take a 30 minute break at the top and enjoy the views before heading back. Also, they offer poles as an optional part of your rental and they were super helpful so do take advantage of those! Trails are very well marked and maintained which was extremely impressive and made us feel at ease going through the terrain. Every staff person who we encountered was incredibly friendly. It really made for a nice time. read more

I love the stables,! Perfect place for a trail ride with kids. Amazing wranglers, horses are wonderful, clean, loved. Priced appropriate for the quality. read more

Fantastic hotel/ranch. Very family friendly with lots of activities for kids and adults. Service and physical quality of hotel and rooms was outstanding. Beautiful location. The down side is that it is a bit pricey and the dining room staff were a bit inflexible. I would definitely go back. read more

We had a fantastic experience having a birthday experience in the wine cellar and it was most memorable. Fabulous food, impeccable service and so very intimate. HIghly recommend this experience if you want something very special. read more

I only was able to spend 2 nights....but it was so relaxing that it seemed like a week! My 2 year old grandson loved it. He could go out and run, we felt he was safe...he loved the animals and the beautiful pool. I could rock him sleep on the porch. Food was amazing! We were able to make it to happy hours the first night. They even did a smores dessert for everyone at the fire pit. He had 2. Second night we went to the more elegant restaurant, loved the trout for the first time in my life. Over all I can't wait to go back. A piece of heaven! read more

Year after year, Devil's Thumb Ranch exceeds my expectations. I was having a hard time planning my proposal to my girlfriend (and now fiance). A buddy of mine reminded me that Devil's Thumb is incredibly beautiful and might work well for a proposal. After chatting with the friendly crew in the ski shop, they recommended a really nice place on the trail for me to propose. They even gave me a bottle of champagne and some glasses at no charge. The proposal turned out wonderful. Devil's Thumb provides a top quality experience, is only surpassed by their "bend over backwards" customer service. read more