I'm obsessed with this bar's vibe on Saturdays -- they go full goth theme, and the whole place has this dark, vampire aesthetic that I absolutely love. It's right in the heart of Hollywood, so just be prepared to pay for parking. Cover is $15, drinks are decent, but honestly, it's more about the experience than anything else. From the moment you walk in, it's a whole scene. There are vendors selling goth-inspired items, live performances happening throughout the night, and they even handed us playful "spank rulers" at the door. There's also a more risqué, adults-only vibe upstairs if that's your thing. The music perfectly matches the atmosphere -- dark, moody, and on point. Definitely recommend checking it out at least once. It's an experience from entrance to exit. read more

A random Wednesday night! Came here for free Wednesdays. I happen to be in Hollywood that day. It's been a long time since I've been here. It was a quiet night at first, but then picked up later in the night. This place brings back a lot of fun memories of my youth. I believe this was the first goth club I started going to back then. Everyone is always nice. The dark decor is always great. read more

See all

Liked the music and atmosphere, the place could stand to have more ventilation (even I have a high tolerance for warmth, being in goth formal attire and dancing is a feat) and I had a rather unpleasant experience with the bartender when asking for a simple whiskey neat but otherwise, I cherish the vibe here! read more

The ambient on the second floor is amazing, please be respectful and enjoy the show. mistress Ava was amazing.

SUPER FUN I went for blue mondays which is on Thursday and it was so fun the music was fun they had 2 different areas! An inside area with 80s goth and an outside area with more 2000s like music! It wasn't too packed but had enough people to feel comfortable dancing! read more

Bar Sinister - Cute little chairs they have which are so cute for photos! - Bars Near Me - Hollywood, California

This place is a bit wild. If you're in the mood for a place that gives you a "From Dusk Til Dawn" or "1990s vampire movie bar" vibe, this is your spot. Andi was here for it! Gogo dancing girls in cages, cheap, strong drinks. Downside: $15 cover, but once you get in, drinks are $8 ea. Bartenders are fast AF and they keep em coming! Electonica/industrial music, which I was good with. Chill clientele, if a bit goth-y. The women here grew up reading "Twilight," so highly recommend black attire if you're looking to pick up here, lol. read more

I was recommended this place by a friend. I showed up with friends and immediately I had a bad feeling about this place. I drove 2 hours to get there and paid for parking. I paid 20 bucks entry fee. I got in and was greeted by a girl (this is a good thing) then I went to buy drinks and the fat guy on the security team kicked us out before we finished our drinks. I wasn't in the bar for that long. Went to buy drinks, got my drinks and immediately got kicked out. And the drinks were expensive for no reason!!!! Not worth it. As a matter of fact I've been to better places for cheap. read more

This was both my first and last visit to this establishment. To preface: I have deep roots in the goth scene -- from close friendships with artists to direct ties with several of the bands you feature on your weekend lineups. I was genuinely looking forward to finally checking this place out, thinking it might be a fun weekend getaway. After driving two hours and paying for parking, we were greeted by one of the most unpleasant security teams I've ever encountered and I've worked with venues for years. The attitude was unnecessarily arrogant and dismissive from the start. In my case, I was told I wouldn't be allowed entry because I was wearing a white shirt. When I asked why, I was told, "It's on our Instagram." (It's not.) Then came the kicker: "It's goth night. This is a goth bar." That comment alone revealed how completely disconnected this place is from the actual goth community. I was wearing a white shirt tucked into black Dickies, with black Doc Martens, a chain choker, and a pocket chain. If this venue defines "goth" purely by the color of someone's shirt, that's not a scene that's a costume party. And even if I didn't "look goth" (which I did), is that grounds for exclusion? Since when is gatekeeping based on appearance acceptable in a community built on acceptance, expression, and individuality? Would you deny Robert Smith entry? He wears white. Morrissey wears white. Siouxsie Sioux wears white. The idea that "this is a goth bar with a dress code" comes off as completely performative and tone-deaf. And to make things worse, I personally watched guests both ahead of and behind me get in while wearing white. So clearly, this wasn't about a dress code it was about who security liked. Eventually, I managed to get a black shirt, only to be met with, "This better not come off." Excuse me? Or what I get kicked out? That comment alone was weirdly threatening and made the entire experience feel even more hostile. As if that wasn't enough, the same security guard who initially stopped me proceeded to follow me around the venue all night, making the rest of my time there uncomfortable and tense. Overall, the entire vibe of this place felt unwelcoming and out of touch. If you care at all about authenticity or community, this is not the place. Maybe this review will get ignored like so many others seem to. But I can promise this: I won't be returning to and neither will any of my friends. I'll make sure that message is shared throughout my network in the scene, because a place that treats people like this doesn't deserve a voice in a community it clearly doesn't understand. read more

fun vibe on saturdays, though the music can get pretty repetitive (there's plenty more goth-leaning music out there) and the bathroom situation is usually BAD. a fun place to dance, people usually leave you alone more than they do in bars, but they could do a better job removing creeps. drinks are strong read more

the security threatened to hit my homegirl if they didnt exit immediately when it closed. threatening assault is not okay. shame on the security. Everyone else was amazing. read more

I loved Bar sinister before I got ill. The music, attire, the it was a great experience .

Been coming here for a year now, and I wish I started coming earlier. I've been there probably over 50+ times. The security in the front is super friendly and funny. Never had an issue with staff here, except the bar tenderer in the patio on mondays is kinda rude. They have "Blue Mondays on thursdays" now which is cool. Definitely best days are mondays still for now. They have a photo booth and some sitting areas Two different dancing areas but only one room (the main room) stays the same every week. The patio varies every week, so you gotta check on instagram what the theme/genre is for that week. Drinks are a little pricey, so maybe pregame before (safely). Coat rack for $2 on mondays but none of thursdays. They don't care if u smoke weed at the patio or vape. Main room is alternative 80's. Bring friends! read more

Bar Sinister - Pic of me and the homie ! Great time! - Bars Near Me - Hollywood, California

Fun place, read a lot of reviews that I did not understand at first but after going I completely understand. Dress code is enforced but not like a lot of people are saying, no blue jeans, go as funky or creative as you want. The more out there the better for that place. Or just wear all black and you are good. Drinks are expensive just like everywhere else. Crowd is mix but interesting. The upstairs is where they say the funky stuff happens, if you are into that it should be fun. read more

Came here for the Stabbing Westward show with my spouse. It is definitely a beautiful sexy vibe, I appreciate the de Sadian aesthetic and my inner domme tingles at the sight of all the corsets and fishnet. It brought back treasured memories of dancing the nights away at Das Bunker and Perversion in my 20s, with dark travelers all around, to the tunes of the legendary DJ Amanda Jones. I felt right at home, clad in a sheer black mesh dress, giant stompy boots, hair coiffed, face and body snatched to the gods, coffin nails freshly painted. But this January night in 2025, I did not appreciate the alleged birthday girl snapping at me to get the f out of her way. We were standing in the middle area minding our business, not exactly in front of the stage, there was no indication that the area we were occupying was reserved by her or anyone else, especially since the space we were in had just been vacated by two overserved people. She screamed at me and asked no one in particular where security was. Why would security be guarding the front of a janky old non functional water fountain surrounded by clove smoking guests enjoying the bands? There were no signs posted, no borders erected, nothing cordoned off. Security was busy; I saw them trying to fix a busted toilet in the restroom. I'd have been more receptive if she were polite. We moved aside from her precious "reserved area," no problem. The rest of the evening was great, Stabbing Westward always put on a fun show. But the nasty interaction with a long time employee definitely put a damper on my spirits. I hope she recovers from whatever was ailing her. I get it, I hate birthdays too, but that's no reason to be rude to concert patrons who traveled from many hours away to spend our time, money, and energy supporting this long time, special venue. A "sorry, but this area should be blocked off, I have reserved it" would have sufficed. What a bummer too, considering we were all there in spite of the LA fires raging around. I'm unimpressed. read more

Bar Sinister - Christopher Hall and Walter Flakus of Stabbing Westward are a delight, as always. - Bars Near Me - Hollywood, California

The venue itself is a cool set up. I'm glad I went with friends who make anything fun and take note of things that aren't so great but fit let it ruin the night. The drinks were super weak, and I don't drink super often, so this isn't a comment from some "unless it's straight alcohol, it's weak" person. The female bartender into the outdoor area Saturday , January 31st was a complete jerk! She was rude to each person she I retracted with from the moment they walked up. It was commented on multiple times so we stopped going to that bar. She needs a serious attitude check. The rest of the bartenders were friendly and professional. The music was good. I don't really understand the hanging hats in the dance floor. They don't really seem very goth but everything else about the ambience is great. read more

I have been wanting to go to this Goth bar forever! Finally got a friend to want to do the trip out with me. And we had sooooo much fun!!! A couple of things though: they have a dress code. And they DO enforce it. You must be wearing all black to get into this bar. Yes I said ALL black. That means, you can't have white shoes, or a colored jacket. It's gotta be black on black on black. My friend was wearing a black plaid button up shirt with blue stripes, and he was told he couldn't enter with it on. They allowed him to wear a shirt with some writing. But- they didn't really like the writing on the shirt. The were nice and allowed it. No witting and solid black would have been better. My friend left his button up on the coat rack which was a $2 fee. The entrance fee was $15 per person. They pat ya down to make sure you aren't bringing anything in. The security at this place is pretty tight. Like they are on it. Drinks are hella expensive, but it's LA so what do you expect? Lol The decor and ambiance is dark and vampy. Heavenly for me!!! I loved all the alternative and goth vibes. It's dark inside and the decor looks like a cross between the Victorian era and Halloween. :) I love it! There was a room with a stage area with a guy spinning fire! So cool. There was a bar there, but the bartender was a little grumpy lol The other room had a separate bar and had go-go dancers. More people were dancing in this room. The upstairs features a "play room" that you are not allowed to take any pictures or videos. The security will ask you to put your phone away if you are upstairs. Good vibes at this venue. I plan on coming back! read more

Bar Sinister - So fun! Vampire friendly bar - Bars Near Me - Hollywood, California

Be warned, some people who go here are looking to start fights on purpose. I went last weekend and some woman I never met before spilled her whole drink on me. When I asked, confused, why she did that, she got in my face with a look of crazy in her eye and began to threaten me. She lunged at me and my friend got between us. She had to physically hold that psycho back, who was trying to grab at me. I immediately went to security about this, but their response was to do nothing and let that terrible person take the bench seat that had been ours, basically rewarding her atrocious behavior. A bouncer told me that my aggressor would sit where she was, and I was to go to the other side of the club. In the event that this person would attack me again, they would throw us both out. That made me feel so unsafe. Another security person said he would walk me to the door if I wanted, which was nice but that doesn't change the fact that my night was ruined. And frankly, if someone like that, someone that is trying to pick fights on purpose, is allowed to continue going there, consequence free, what does that say about this club? One of the girls I came there with, didn't want to leave right away, so it took us longer than I wanted, to actually leave. The bouncer thought that meant I "came around" and was content with their service. No, no I was not. I had paid for the entry plus I had to buy a pair of black pants I didn't need, out of pocket, only to have a drink spilled on those brand new pants. I went there to enjoy myself and instead, I was attacked, cussed at, threatened, my outfit was ruined, and my evening was ruined. Not coming back here again. read more

I wanted to enjoy this place and what it offers with my girlfriend and friend despite the negative reviews (give it the benefit of the doubt) maybe I've been spoiled by the goth and alternative scene out in the IE and OC. But despite after a night out at a local bar I wanted to bring my girls here and were denied for my girlfriends jeans. I don't know if this is "payback" from the owner for the jocks who would give swirlies to the "weird kids" but cmon. We're here for an amazing night in the scene we're most comfortable in and this happens. Way to end such a good night. Even if we were to come back with "proper attire" I doubt this bad taste in our mouth will subside. LAME. read more

Bar Sinister was an interesting place- I was told of this bar pre-pandemic because it caters to the alternative lifestyle I was excited to finally try it immediately I was questioned by the security guard who was checking IDs "are you sure you're in the right place?" I responded "Im wearing all black aren't I" they have a dress code they except all to adhere to - either goth attire or all black is preferred, however I saw some people inside not wearing anything that fit those two criteria - mainly some anime chick in all pink lingerie/bdsm harnesses (fine whatever it is a bdsm bar) This bar was large, comprised of 3 sections the first was the patio, which offered a bar, a stage, and an outside area to smoke and mingle with others the inside was another bar, dancers, a dance floor, minimal lounge seating and my favorite part of bar sinister the photo booth upstairs was small, offered a bar area, some seating, and BDSM preview interesting bar and concept im in the scene but it all felt like a lot of the people there were cosplaying as extras in buffy the vampire slayer, otherwise it looked like the regulars there were having a blast also super fun to spot the normies who were hella uncomfy read more

back in April I tried coming here with my girlfriend and the front desk people told me I couldn't enter because they assumed I was already drunk. I did not drink because I had to drive here, yet they said "your body language says otherwise". Then afterwards we were yelled at more to leave despite our friends trying to explain the situation. I've never felt more discriminated against in my life. Save your time and money and don't ever go to this bar! read more

Went there for my first time finally, after years of wanting to go. It was pretty cool imo, I'd definitely go again. I danced, I drank, I saw pretty girls dance lol. Everyone seemed cool. Certainly no complaints on my behalf. I was lowkey worried about the dress code being super strict, but they didn't seem all that concerned about it when I went. I'd still recommend dressing up just in case they decide they do care that day. Plus it's matches the vibes lol. All black, no athletic wear or leisure wear. read more

I'm sad to say this place is horrible! You're better off going elsewhere. I was so excited to go here for my birthday to enjoy the vibe. the venue itself is beautiful but unfortunately the experience was full of terrible energy. While my fiancé and I were in line, the Black security guard was extremely rude to us. My fiancé was on his phone and didn't hear the request for ID, and instead of politely asking again (which my fiancé already had ID in his hand), the guard made a snarky comment: "Oh he's busy I guess." When we finally got in, things didn't improve. Security checked me, the woman said nothing, so I walked away then she rudely called me back, yelling "I'M NOT DONE." Meanwhile, they patted my fiancé down TWICE and gave him an unnecessarily hard time about entering. It was obvious we were being treated differently. I had read reviews saying drinks were cheap, but I was charged $30 for just 2 drinks (not even shots). Honestly, it felt like we were singled out since my fiancé wasn't dressed goth, I believe we were treated unfairly and even charged more. Another frustrating issue was the entrance fee. They had a $5 discount if you showed their IG post. My fiancé doesn't have social media, but the staff told us "next time you both need to show the post," even though the promotion didn't mention that every person had to present it. I was genuinely sad I couldn't enjoy this place, because I really wanted to love it. The venue is pretty, but the rude security, inconsistent rules, unfair treatment, and overpriced drinks ruined the night. Definitely not worth it. read more

Went to this bar with my friends Drinks are strong but good Kenny the bartender understood the assignment on making them strong Although we had paid for credits to play a song on the jukebox box and when it was playing this lady which happens to be the dictator comes over and unplugged the jukebox in a very rude manner and says something talking about "No no no this isn't a dance floor" Be aware she looks like this it won't be hard to find her she stands out very well, But Kenny YOU THE MF MVP bless your soul on working with that miserable bitch. read more

Bar Sinister - This is her. - Bars Near Me - Hollywood, California

Great bar, very Goth detailed. Fast service and friendly. Great experience and cool vibe. It's definitely a vibe. There was no food there, read more

See all

they are racist!! do not come here if you are black or brown!! came here last weekend for my husband's birthday, he's a black man by the way. they gave these two black men bullshit about not matching the dress code because they were in light clothing but they let two white people in with very light clothing right before. they supposedly have this deal that if you come here for your birthday month you can get in for free. they told him that it's only applicable on Friday's and to come the next Friday. well we came today on Friday and she wouldn't let my husband get in for free because he's black! it was the same doorman too! Racist as fuck! read more

The place is nice very classic Hollywood style bar I did like the drink I was served. There was not a lot of people I just stopped there for drinks with friends. I liked the service and the drink. So for that is a good place read more

Such a gorgeous place. Went to the Vampire Bazaar and had a blast. Vamp ball pre party last night. Fantastic. However, the smoking was out of control. Yoy could not get away from it. When finding a bit of a reprieve from it, you still couldn't get away from it because the smokers just can't put out their addiction and have to come into areas where the merchants were in the hall, stand there and smoke. I had to leave because of it. Wasting the $30 bucks for a one way uber, leaving my party, my cover fee and coat check fee. Money that could have been spent happily an another location that respects all patrons. The bar, which serves food, may have a patio, you would not recognize it as a patio as the top was covered (enclosed) and the smoke has no where to go but in the lungs of non smoking patrons. Thanks, Bar Sinister for turning your gorgeous venue into a nasty place to be. Never going back. read more

Teleport yourself back to the late 80s early 90s, put your phone in your pocket, and leave your God's at the door. Bar Sinister mixes the baroque feel of a vampire's castle with modern sleaze to bring you one of the best nightclubs in Hollywood. Whether you want to sip a drink outdoors by the candelabra, dance amongst the go-go dancers to some of the greatest goth hits of the 80's/90's, or sit in the upstairs lounge judging the mortals below, Bar Sinister has a space for you. Make sure before you leave to pile your friends into that photo booth so you can remember the night-- because the bartenders are kind, and pour heavy. It's Hollywood, so parking is nothing short of a nightmare. But just down the street is an inexpensive lot, and you might get lucky finding metered parking along the way. Bar Sinister is attached to Boardner's, so if you get tired from dancing and debauchery head over there for a killer burger. If you can't make it out to Bar Sinister on Saturday, or are feeling a more laid back vibe, check out Wednesday's Party on, you guessed it, Wednesday. read more

See all

Disappointing and Disrespectful Experience After 20 Years of Loyalty I've been going to Bar Sinister for about 20 years, and I've always loved the place--that is, until last night. What was once one of my favorite spots turned into a nightmare due to the most inexcusable behavior from an employee named Jackie. I accidentally bumped into her, and immediately apologized, but instead of accepting it like a reasonable person, she decided to berate me! She started swearing at me and accusing me of assaulting her, which is absolutely ridiculous. I've never experienced such extreme rudeness from any of the staff here before. She even threatened to have me kicked out, all because of an accidental bump that I apologized for! I've never seen her at Bar Sinister before, so she must be new. She's around 5'4" (without her 6-inch platform boots), with long black hair that honestly looked like it hadn't been washed in weeks. She actually resembled Gollum from Lord of the Rings--and her attitude wasn't much better. Whoever hired her seriously needs to reconsider their choice because she clearly doesn't understand how to treat customers. After two decades of supporting this club, it's disheartening to have such a terrible experience. This place used to be my go-to, but with staff like Jackie, I'm not so sure anymore. I expect better from a place I've been loyal to for so long. I miss the old days when my follow goths were nice to hang around. This younger "goth" generation is insulting. read more

Went on the 25th anniversary. $25 entrance fee but we got a free champagne ticket. Once inside we walked around to see the different rooms. We chose to stay in the room with the disco ball because the music had us dancing the night away. On the way out they gave us a good bag. I would definitely come back. Overall friendly staff as well read more

Bar Sinister - Free Champagne - Bars Near Me - Hollywood, California

An experience to check out! Came to Bar Sinister to celebrate a friend's birthday. After hearing about this place from several people I finally was able to check it out. I personally am not into goth/BDSM scene so everything that I saw was eye opening. The attendees, staff and atmosphere were all enjoyable. Our party was given a free bottle of champagne which was awesome! I don't think I would be able to make it on my own, so I will be waiting for the next time I get invited to Bar Sinister. :) Parking: paid lots in close vicinity VERDICT: Rinse and repeat read more

Bar Sinister - Bars Near Me - Hollywood, California

Bar Sinister is always such a good time. People there are open minded and respectful. I'm not really into clubbing, but I'm always down for a bar sin night. read more

Updating my review since my last visit. The music is better; not hard enough for me, but the vibe is popping' now. Cover is now $15 on Saturdays. Will absolutely return. read more

So, I visited Bar Sinister for the first time a couple weekends ago and had an extremely enjoyable evening- because I am able to go out and make it so. The music being played for the night though was not mainly goth or industrial and that was disappointing; but I am still pretty happy just getting to dance so no real complaints. The upstairs play area was a little lack luster and there appeared to be no organization or host in the area to help coordinate or direct people. Over all it's a cool bar with a good theme even if the paid dancers were boring to watch. Big plus is that bar tenders pour heavy handed but from my short experience and reading reviews from those who would consider themselves regulars, it is clearly not as tightly coordinated or well managed as it once was. I love that there is an alt bar/nightclub but it honestly wasn't any better than the local goth events I go to in my area and the music is better at those events than it was at Sinister. read more

Really enjoyed our evening here. Decently priced drinks. Inviting goth/punk/industrial/fetish vibe. If you like the scene , you'll like this place. read more

For my first time coming to this bar, I had an absolute great time. I love dancing and have always try to find environments where that's all I can do is dance and I don't have to worry about being groped or sexually assaulted. Bar Sinister's environment is really inviting and a lot of the people that I met there were really nice. The security guards are uptight and nice at the same time. But it really just depends on who you're talking to. As someone who is born in LA I get the staffs certain level of assertiveness because you have to put your foot down when people are under the influence in such a large group. The dress code also makes sense because it is a goth bar, so they want keep that theme going. All the guys that I dance with stopped when I told them to stop for the most part. I think going to any bar it is really important to remember that the customers and guests that come into the bar can be rude and disrespectful to the staff. So that's why the staff and security guards are the way that they are because they don't want to be pushed over. I'm giving it a four star because the bathroom is way too small for both the women's and men's. Also, the hallway where the restrooms are is really small, so there is a chance of you getting slammed by the restroom door. If you do not like the smell of cigarettes and marijuana and vape smoke mix together, I would not recommend coming going out to the patio because there is not that much ventilation. But I don't really mind it so that does not negatively affect my review. I would really definitely recommend this place because everyone is dancing and it's like there is no opinions no hate no judging and everyone is there for one thing and that's to dance and have fun. Also, it's pretty easy to find a dance partner but I would recommend going with a friend just so that you have that safety net. read more

Went to Bar Sinister for the first time in April for a friends birthday. It was also an Alice in Wonderland theme night so many people were dressed up like characters which was fun, on their instagram they said you got $5 off their entrance fee if you dressed up but when you went they didn't actually follow through. The place itself is a lot smaller than I thought. There is the hall you walk through to the outside area (which has an empty fountain with candles) with a bar and stage, and then you can go inside where they have a bar, dance floor, stages for the dancers, and stairs to the upstairs "kink" area. They did have a professional dominatrix who was spanking people and anyone could go up as long as you signed a form and I could see she would talk to them before doing anything to the person. I even made my friend go get a birthday spanking which she did say stung a bit haha. They had different performances later like a burlesque show and a women who wore a metal corset and would make sparks come out using some tool against it. In that upstairs kink area they did also have a little spanking show where they had someone cuffed to these two points on the ceiling (isnt very high), but you can basically sit on the couches around there and watch or get a drink in the tiny bar they have there as well. The music is alright, they tend to change the feeling a little to fast for me. If you aren't use to dancing to alternative music then it might feel a little weird but just have fun and dance how you want (there is not much room on the dancefloor tho). The drinks were pricey but it is a club in Hollywood so $10-$15 for a drink. They do have a dress code that they are more specific on their insta. I wore just all black. We parked at some lot (I think for a church) kinda forgot how much we paid but it was near by. Also the Hollywood area can feel a little sketchy at night but there was also tons of people but be careful (especially the way you go dressed to this club) read more

Bar was so nice, vibes were there, went for goth night! Music was so fun, only problem was the bartender was rude as hell honestly, I myself am not an avid drinker so idk what drinks are called, I had my friend just ask him to make a fruity drink and he's like "what do u want" but in a rude way and he was just annoying idk, anyway I was just thinking if I was the one who asked and he replied to me that way I would've just left. O YEA, other thing that made me give it a higher rating was their photo-booth, they have one!!! They're like 5.60-5.75 I forgot, each. Took like 5, so fun!! read more

Bar Sinister - Inside - Bars Near Me - Hollywood, California

See all

Fun bar. Great cocktails. Felt very welcomed. Located near the Beverly Center in Hollywood.

I've been going to Bar Sinister since 2008 and it's been in a steady decline since covid. The security has been the same throughout, I've never had an issue personally - snuck plenty in over the years with no problems, never been hassled. My main issue is with the blond door lady who is blatantly transphobic (bestie got so much shit) and very judgmental, eyeballing you from head to toe, and sneering at dark brown, grey or crust punk even if the majority is black. Bartenders are over worked, order quick and simple- you won't have a problem. The music was much better when it was traditional goth and industrial. I'm old though, I dont want to go to a goth club and hear whatever the DJ wants, I want goth music. Girls bathrooms are an insanely long wait. It's so packed and uncomfortable to exist, super limited seating. I rated it this low cuz it used to be super rad and it sucks now read more