Yes it's so unfortunate.. my wedding was 10/10/2020 due to Covid we couldn't hold our wedding at the venue. We reserved our spot for two years prior. We have reached out to the insurance company and Susan our primary coordinator, the have rejected our entire cost of the wedding and/or no returning of emails as to what type of explanation could not provide our refund for a wedding we never got to have. My husband and I are now out $15k .. not the best start as a newlywed couple. I'm so confused as to how this could happen never in my mind did I think we weren't "eligible" to receive our money back. This pandemic hit so many hard, but I don't understand as a paid off customer long before this pandemic occurred how we could not receive our refund. read more

I got married yesterday (10/13/19). I got engaged at the end of June and immediately started looking for a venue. The next weekend I scheduled an appointment with Susan for a tour and to talk about estimated costs. The minimum guest count is 60 guests. Susan was extremely kind, helpful, and prompt. She answered all my questions (even the ones I asked several times because I forgot I had already asked). The venue came with an incredible cake vendor, the taco vendor was amazing (the guests were RAVING about the tacos) and the wedding went so smoothly despite our pastor being 30 minutes late. She helped keep everything on schedule, calm people down, etc. The leaves were changing colors so the photos came out beautifully. read more

I had my wedding here in the fall of 2016 and it was absolutely gorgeous. The venue is an oasis in the mountains, where you have the opportunity to be in the outdoors and take in the beauty of nature. The venue was what I had always pictured for my wedding and they made sure to focus on the locations where I wanted more attention. My wedding was rustic themed and this location meshed with it perfectly. The walkways, amazing bridge, lanterns, and openness of the location allows for you to see everything in a single glance. I received so many compliments from our guests on the location itself! The staff was always there by my side asking me if I ever needed anything, which was extremely helpful and considerate with all the constant motion that ensues with a wedding. I never had to get things for myself and it made me feel like a princess on my wedding day. The staff was there to help with running the wedding smoothly and giving us enough time in every part of the schedule without it ever feeling rushed. They were all courteous, professional, and friendly in the whole entire process! read more

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Our wedding was In August 2013. The staff was very helpful until it got close to the wedding date. They were very strict on things that were silly in my opinion. You could only have the bridal room for 1 hour before the wedding and could only have a very few amount of people. I only had 5 girls in my bridal party, but it was to many to use the room, so we got ready and took pictures at our VRBO. We were sold on the fact that the hosts would be our day of helpers and if we sent the list of vendors which we were required to do, they would confirm everything and arrange for deliveries. That being said my cake was very late, because the vendor had a hard time finding the venue and no one was answering the phones, my parents and friends had to set up all the flowers and table gifts alone with no help. Our photo booth also never showed up, and they thought the best time to tell was while we were taking our pictures right after the ceremony. Honestly I don't think I would have even noticed had they not said it. We also paid extra for appetizers for our guests during the cocktail hour, which were never provided. The water station was all the way up near the cabin and single restroom, which was challenging for our older guests. Also we made sure that they would have a particular type of alcohol at the bar, and they didn't buy enough and ran our and had to go to the store during the event to get more. I loved the venue and we have great pictures, but they definitely over sold themselves as hosts. Following the wedding we attempted to contact them about a refund for the appetizers, and they ignored us and also tried to claim we never paid for it. read more

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As of 4/12/2021 this place appears to be out of business. Their website no longer works and their Facebook page says "permanently closed". They apparently are not refunding deposits made by people prior to their closing. read more

This venue is like a magical secret garden. We just had our wedding here and it was beautiful! Everything ran according to plan. I didn't have anyone bugging me before or during the wedding. I was a about 25-30 minutes late to the ceremony so I thought we couldn't do the first look but Susan was very understanding and allowed us to still do what was planned. Everyone was raving about the food as well. We got the on site bbq. If you want a rustic woodsy environment without the crazy mountain roads this is the place ! read more

I've had some time to ponder over this review. We had our wedding at the guest ranch October 18th. We got engaged in Kansas City and we're looking for something similar as far as a rustic feel. We met with the owners Richard and Judy and were instantly taken by how kind they were. The venue itself is a beautiful location and we were instantly sold. We had a 2 year engagement and They were very upfront with the cost and gave us payment options for the length of the contract. After the contract was signed we didn't really hear much from Richard or Judy after. You deal with Cindy as far as arraignments and communication mainly thru email. Now to the days leading up to the wedding. We had rain scattered showers In The forecast leading up to the wedding. Cindy had come up with a plan that helped the wedding party the day before and us split the cost of a tent and heaters. It's was a great plan cause although we didn't get any rain the day of our wedding, the grounds were still very soggy from rain the day before. The heaters made the guests very comfortable. My biggest complaint was the actual day of the wedding. We informed Richard that we had a guest that we didn't want to attend and might show up regardless. My wife was threatening by Richard that if we didn't pay for extra security at a tune of 500 dollars they were going to cancel the wedding and we wouldn't be receiving a refund. How cruel is that to threaten the bride THE MORNING of the wedding and add stress to an already stressful morning. She agreed to the cost. Most security guards average 10-15 bucks an hour...Simple math, times that by 6 hours and you can see where we were completely ripped off...To be honest. I really didn't see the extra security that we paid for and come later to find out one of the the security guards were sneaking off into the woods with the female guests including one minor. What exactly did we pay 500 dollars for?? Originally Richard said that the cost would be 1000 dollars but my brother in law talked him down to 500. I really don't think any owner would eat a 500 dollar cost at their own expense. It really seems like we were charged on something that was playing off of emotions. After all that morning drama the day itself turned out beautiful. We had nothing but compliments about how beautiful the venue was. The food was catered from Lucielles BBQ and it was top notch. The guests said it was some of the best wedding food they had ever had. Overall the guest ranch had its positives and negatives. More positives than anything. My biggest advice if your considering the guest ranch is read your contract throughly. We went into this knowing the time of the wedding would be from 4-10pm. Honestly if I could do it again I probably would not have went with the guest ranch just on timing alone. it's just not enough time to go thru the traditional wedding things and actually have fun with your guests. Even if you time everything correctly you really only have about an hour and a half to two hours to really party and have fun. Cindy breaks down the timing for you on your final meeting and it's really discouraging. Your basically paying 2000 dollars an hour for a very limited amount of time. read more

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We recently had our wedding at Guest Ranch on June 6, 2015. I cannot recommend this venue enough. If you are looking for a perfect outdoor, mountain, rustic venue... look no further! When we got engaged we knew we wanted our wedding in the mountains. I did very extensive research at tons of outdoor venues in Southern California. I looked specifically at Lake Arrowhead, Big Bear, as well as Wrightwood. After many hours of online research, we made a trip up to the ranch. We immediately fell in love. It was the first place we checked out, and while we checked out many more after, we found ourselves back at Guest Ranch. The people that work there and run the ranch (also the owners) were amazing. They were extremely helpful, kind, and did everything they could to make sure our day was perfect. As soon as we booked the venue, we were able to call or email at any time and get quick and helpful feedback answering any and all questions we had. To get to the actual venue... BEAUTIFUL. Simply beautiful. The ranch is well kept, has a beautiful pond, gorgeous bridge, and amazing tree to have your ceremony in front of. Our guests have constantly complimented us since the wedding expressing how breath taking our venue was and how perfect it was for our rustic wedding. When it came to our wedding day, skies were clear and there wasn't a chance of rain. However; as soon as we said I do and the ceremony ended, it started raining. We obviously did NOT plan for this. The workers and everyone at the venue could not have been more helpful. While my husband and I were taking pictures, everyone moved all of our stuff underneath the big tree to keep people somewhat dry from the rain. What could have been a complete disaster, ended up being absolutely perfect. We had some good luck with some rain, and the reception was just as gorgeous as I imagined (even though we had to move stuff mid-wedding). We were so appreciative that the staff at the ranch was so together, and knew exactly what to do to assure that our wedding wasn't affected by a little rain. I can't thank the venue, Cindi, Richard, and Judy, enough for making our wedding day a fairy tale come true. Wrightwood Guest Ranch is definitely a gem & could not have been more perfect for our big day! read more

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Despite a very basic website with only limited photos and information, the folks at Wrightwood Guesy Ranch are very informative, kind, and helpful... plus, they own it! Having an affinity for Mountain High, my fiancé and I agreed that we wanted a winter wedding in Wrightwood. We considered Big Bear but prefer the less hoity toity attitude that Mt High has in comparison to Bear Mountain, so we wanted to support the locals of our favorite southern california resort if possible. There aren't a lot of options for winter in either city, but we did stumble across the Guest Ranch and, after further researching on Google, Facebook, Instagram, and (most importantly thus far) Trip Advisor, we decided to check it out. The girlfriend headed up there and loved it - in January no less. But, they don't do winter weddings due to unpredictable weather. So, we decided fall. Mid October. She came home with an in depth invoice, high praise for the owners, and we emailed questions back and forth a few times with the ownera before making a down paymebt and locking in our date. Keep in mind though, no matter how kind they are: money talks. So if they dont have your money, you don't have a wedding date. We needed six days to get the money together and for me to get time off work to get back up there to sign a contract, but we lost our preferred date in those 6 days. BUT, low and behold, they came back with another date, later in the season when they are normally closed. So we jumped on October 24, 2014. We stayed in contact via email and had a perfect wedding. My only complaints for our wedding day were: only one bathroom and only one bartender. If they just had 2 of each, it would have been totally perfect. The weather was gorgeous: high 70s with a breeze and low 60s after dark. I was worried there wouldn't be enough food- we went with Lucille's (brisket, greens, mashed potatoes and for cocktail hour: crabcakes, spinach dip, and biscuits) and there was leftovers and second helpings. We did run out of booze though. It was an Irish wedding so here's a hint: anytime both bride and groom have a Fitz or a Mc in their last name, stock more whiskey. ;-) read more

Short: 1. owners that CARE 2. Well Maintained grounds 3. Great surroundings (peaceful) 4. Very secluded (can be hard to find...map suggested with invitation) Long: I am a wedding planner...and I work at a ton of venues. This was a lovely treat last Sunday...only because of the fantastic owners and lovely staff who truly busted their buns to make the day and night run as smoothly as possible. The client was lovely, though had done much of the planning herself, and as most non-professionals, had left many details unattended. Coming in, I was very nervous (I do not usually offer day-of planning packages for this reason)....but I found that working with Judy and her staff was simple, easy, and the success of the event truly became a team effort. Judy and her team were on site before 8am, and were gracious about my early arrival (I came from 3 hours away so I left extra early just in case...then flew and landed there about two hours before I was supposed to)...none-the-less, they were friendly and helpful and let me get started (and finish my coffee). This was one of those instances where the client opted not to take the bulk of my advice prior to the wedding day...which made the day itself challenging- between discount vendors that showed up late and did not perform professionally (the discount Photo Booth showed up, did not explain their wattage needs when asked, then proceeded to blow out the electricity..twice...during the ceremony) and guests that showed up over an hour early, Judy and her staff kept cool heads and constantly exhibited a unique tranquillity, the ability to think on their feet, and a can-and-will do attitude that never quit. Aside from a great team, the grounds offer a great, private space with lots of nature, a pretty pond and mini-waterfall and many other great photo ops spots. It is fairly hidden...which on the plus side makes it private and secluded...but on the logistics side is best displayed on a map and sent with invitations :) Their shuttle service is on-point and friendly...and everyone from the shuttle driver to the service staff will bend over backwards to give their clients the best possible experience. Tips: Use preferred vendors. Don't shop on thumbtack. Don't bring chilled desserts at 8am for a wedding at 4:30...they tell you in the contract that there is no refrigeration...they mean it. read more

The venue will satisfy and bride. It is beautiful. The staff treated us like royalty. If u r looking for a venue that is part of nature, this is the place. I would not have changed a thing. read more

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Attending a wedding.. Shuttle service. Bar. Pond. The ground are the mountains. Big trees atmosphere is top notch. The workers Are friendly. Nice place for ANY event read more

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My husband and I got married here June 14 2014. It was incredible. The whole set up was amazing. The flowers were beautiful, the grass was green, everything was alive and well kept up. The ponds had water in them. It was truly everything we wanted. The owners Judy and Richard were very helpful all the way up to the day of our wedding. They were willing to work with us with payments and all decisions we had to make. There was a few mix ups but we got through them. They had shuttles top take my guests where they needed to be. The had someone walk us through rehearsal and help figure it all out. They were cooperative with the large group we had and allowed the photographers to take pictures during the set up. They allowed my family and friends to start setting up the favors and decorations right after rehearsal was over. They were understanding when it came to our crazy kids running around. The food was amazing and the way the served us as bride and groom made us feel important. The sweet heart table was in the perfect location. The large group that we had made it a little difficult to feed quickly but the staff made it as quick as they could. The accommodated 120 of us pretty well. I will always remember this day and look back on it and know our wedding day was everything and more that we wanted. I want to give a special thanks to the staff at the Wrightwood guest ranch. You all made this our day.. read more

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My husband and I toured this venue a year before our wedding and could not wait for our big day. It was so beautiful!! Fast forward to our recent wedding on July 18, 2015 and our day was plagued with mini-natural disasters including fire and rain and the threat of evacuation. And not just a little rain, a lot of rain - the WHOLE time. Definitely not what any bride wants to deal with. Although we did have to rent a non-refundable tent the week of the wedding due to a "chance" of rain, it was better to be safe than sorry. Cindee, the venue planner, called me the Monday before the wedding to inform me of the possible rain and the recommendation to get the tent. Of course the weather was not her fault and I was hesitant at first, but thank goodness we got it because it saved our whole wedding! It was a little discouraging to have everything moved under the tent with such beauty around, but the staff and owners were wonderful throughout it all! They worked so hard to get everything set up under the tent and even got soaked standing in the rain to usher guests to their spots. They even had a staff member stand outside to direct cars towards a detour since the main road was closed due to a fire that broke out a mile from the venue the night before (Yay! Another possible problem!). Throughout my research on the venue, I had come across some bad reviews about this venue and I cannot understand how any of them could be valid. The owners and their daughter were very thorough in explaining everything and what to expect. I never once felt like I was blindsided by anything they said or did. They were extremely accommodating to my many questions/emails and my DIY decorations. Of course I checked with them prior to constructing any decorations for safety and regulation purposes, but I never had an issue arise. The food was exactly what we ordered and it was perfect! My entire experience was wonderful! A huge thank you to the venue, Cindee, Richard, Judy, and the whole WGR staff for making our wedding day amazing and for making the best out of the weather/fire/threat of evacuation. I am in total agreement with Allison M. and cannot rave enough about this venue and the staff. Would definitely recommend!! :) read more

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I am a professoinal photographer and have worked at many venues. Wrightwood Guest Ranch is one of the best locations for an event if you are lookig for an elegant wooded area. I had the best areas to photograph the wedding couple and the bride had a wonderful cabin bridal room, the ceremony was outdoors with grass and a beautiful tree behind the couple and the reception was outdoors as well in a very beautiful and relaxing environment. I would definitely recommend this location to everyone. read more

Our wedding couldn't have been any better! Everything went off without a hitch and the staff was fantastic. The owners and their daughter were so helpful throughout the whole planning process. I was regularly emailing them and responses were almost immediate. All questions were answered and suggestions were made when I wasn't sure what I wanted. The staff was very friendly, helpful and accommodating the day of the event. The whole process was smooth and pleasant. We seriously couldn't have asked for anything more!!! I would recommend this place to anyone! My husband and I share many outdoor hobbies and were looking for a beautiful location to hold an outdoor ceremony and reception. The cost of venues in June Lake and Mammoth areas were kind of crazy so we started looking closer to home. The Wrightwood Guest Ranch was the first venue we looked at and I fell in love right away, nothing else came close after we saw their picturesque property. We were pleasantly surprised by the relatively low cost as well, weddings aren't cheap but this place is worth every penny! read more

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I highly recommend this venue! It was above and beyond what we dreamt of for our wedding. We are still getting feedback from our friends and family about how gorgeous the venue was. Everything was what we had hoped for and more. The night flowed smoothly, the pictures came about beautifully, and the food was delicious! I really appreciated all their help before the ceremony started, with making sure everything was organized and in place, and answering any questions we had at that nerve wrecking time! The owners and coordinator are extremely clear and helpful. We were able to communicate with them throughout the planning process about any questions or concerns. They are very sweet and genuinely care about making your event special. read more

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My daughter was just married on 6/25/16 at Wrightwood Guest Ranch. Our experience from start to finish was awesome. Susan was our coordinator and was on top of all the details. Super easy to work with. The rehearsal was quick even with an unruly group of bridesmaids and groomsmen! On the day of the event the staff was top notch and really efficient. The venue is so gorgeous and well maintained. Trees, ponds, gorgous grassy areas, bridges, romantic lighting in the trees all made for spectacular photos. One nice feature is weddings here can be personalized compared to other venues we looked at that just cranked out the same wedding. All of our guests fell in love with it. Many of ours friends have been asking about it for their own children's wedding. Highly recommended! read more

The Guest Ranch at Pacific Crest - Wedding Planning Near Me - Wrightwood, California

Very poor security. Easy pickings for smash and grab car thrives. We attended a wedding here on August 31, 2014. It was gorgeous. The setting and event were magical right until the end. Apparently they have NO SECURITY in their parking lot. Several - at least 5 - cars in their " secured" parking lot had windows smashed in and items stolen, including the bride and grooms car with JUST MARRIED written on the windows and one of the photographers cars where camera bags were stolen. Several people list wallets, purses and cell phones!!! The owner of the venue did not act overly concerned. He simply said. "Sorry, check with your car insurance I hope they can help you." The venue is on the very outside edge of LA county and we were told it would take the police 2 to 3 hours to respond. HORRIBLE ending to a wedding!!! read more

My daughter's wedding was June 21, 2014. (The ceremony was at Table Mt Amphitheater). Wrightwood Guest Ranch is a beautiful, beautiful venue. Judy and Richard were very helpful. Towards the end I was dealing with Cindee and she was an angel. At the reception all who worked there were very nice and professional. One tip.....make a detailed map to add to your invitation. It isn't an easy find for most people. My daughter had a website with ALL the info but I guess that's something new the young ones are doing so a lot of people didn't look at all of it. We also stayed at a cabin in town that Sat which was very helpful in getting ready with plenty of room for all the girls of the party. We got a cozy cabin for bride and groom too for that first night. read more

The Guest Ranch at Pacific Crest is Absolutely breath taking! And the staff is exceptional! Susan is such a priceless attribute to the ranch and also to the bride and groom. She is so warm and caring that you feel a connection from the first time you meet her! She listens to your vision and makes it into a reality! She'll take you from worrying and tears to laughing and calm. You will definitely be in good hands with her and the staff! Everything went perfectly for our wedding from start to finish! We could not have chosen a more beautiful venue, more helpful coordinator or more attentive staff!! They take care of you like family!! read more

Our wedding day at the guest ranch was amazing!! We got married on 07/16/16 in Wrightwood after looking at several other venues. Seeing the price difference alone, we were sold on this place plus we are both from this small town and still live here today so we were happy to be able to get married right here in our hometown! I can tell you from the bottom of my heart that the people you will be working with are one of a kind, caring, genuine and can not find anything like this anywhere else. We felt as if we had a planner with us every step of the way down to every detail even changing our menu all vegan last minute after we changed our minds. They let you pay monthly which really worked for us! They were super accomadating when we had last minute things happen and definitely made sure I was happy the entire time! Future Brides- Susan Samples from the guest ranch WILL be your new best friend. We BOTH absolutely loved working with her and truly feel she is like family to us!! Besides all of this, this place is absolutely gorgeous with little to no effort you will have the most beautiful wedding day just because of that alone!! Get married here! What are you waiting for... call Susan @ the guest ranch and book your wedding date!! read more

My daughter just recently had her wedding at the Guest Ranch on June 5, 2016. It was absolutely Amazing!! This venue is the most picturesque we have seen. We looked at several other venues but as soon as the Bride to be saw this one she knew instantly that it was the one for her. From booking the venue, preparation all through the months following and up to the Big day, Susan was very efficient and quick to respond to any questions or concerns we had. On the day of th wedding, everything was prepared just as discussed and ready to go. All of the staff was extremely friendly and helpful. Everyone at the Ranch was so helpful and kind and did anything they could tomhelpmoutmon the day of the wedding. There were parking attendants, a shuttle service from the parking lot up to the site, a bar, dance floor, and staff to serve food and direct guests and staff was wonderful. Tina and Alex from Altic DJ did an amazing job of supplying music and so much more. The food was BBQ on site and I had many, many guests compliment on how delicious the food was. And pretty much every guest said it was the most beautiful wedding setting they have ever seen. This venue is top notch and would highly recommend to anyone that is looking for a beautiful outdoor wedding. They made my daughters childhood dreams of her perfect wedding come true. I cannot thank you enough!! read more

I had my wedding here and the venue was beautiful the owners were so nice and helpful but once they received their money they became extremely RUDE! and disrespectful. The owners AND the "wedding planner" the venue offered lied to us on SEVERAL occasions they also sprung so many last minute things on us it nearly ruined our wedding. They would not allow my family inside the cabin while I got dressed and because of this they ripped away what was suppose to be precious memories not only for me but for my maid of honor (sister) and niece....Not to mention they would not let my two year old nieces dress inside the cabin and it was very cold outside. The "events coordinator" also broke my beautiful cutlery set and blamed it on my new husband and I claiming we broke it during our cake cutting ( I would have noticed if I broke my own cutlery set)...this is only to mention a few things.... I DO NOT! REPEAT DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS VENUE TO ANYONE!!!!!!!!! read more

The hubby and I recently got married this October at Wrightwood Guest Ranch and it was AMAZING! The venue was absolutely gorgeous, we are still receiving compliments on how beautiful the wedding venue was. Not only was the venue amazing in scenery but the staff was awesome. We worked with Cindee, who was absolutely wonderful. Leading up to the wedding I was a total stress ball. Throughout my entire wedding planning process Cindee was there to answer any questions via text, email, or phone. Cindee always responded in a timely manner. I was so concerned with the timeline of the wedding and having time to dance while trying to fit everything else I wanted into the wedding and Cindee helped me plan every detail to ensure my wedding was exactly how I wanted it. Come the day of the wedding the staff was beyond helpful! Everyone was so sweet and caring. It felt like we were working with family the entire time! I am seriously thrilled at how amazing our wedding turned out and I owe a huge thank you to Wrightwood Guest Ranch! read more

Fantastic venue, my wife and I got married here 10/2/15 and we couldn't be happier with our choice. Fantastic staff always able to answer our questions in a timely fashion. Very well priced for what you get would highly recommend them. read more

If your thinking about booking a wedding here dont make the same mistake I did. They are quick to get your $$. A small wedding around 90 guests ran about 5k. They sell you on baby back ribs that are smoked for 24hrs and the meat falls off the bone and rotisserie chicken. A week before the wedding we get a email from Judy that said she changed the menu to BBQ pork ribs and chicken!. What a ordeal that was to get changed back, And the wedding was paid in full all ready! Then there was a extra charge on the bank statement a few weeks later for $680.00 that had to be disputed to get back, and they still can not give me a reason for that charge, said it was a mistake. Also they said they would have a shuttle to take the guests to and from their cars, There was none. The guests had to walk down a dark and very rocky road in nice cloths to get back to their cars. Richard went out of his way to be helpfull and was very nice and had to put his wife in check several times. Judy on the other hand is a complete ..... (fill in the blank) She even brought her dog to the wedding and locked it in one of the bathrooms, so for 88 people you get one small bathroom, what a joke. Before you waste a lot of money on this place go drive into town and talk to the locals, from what I heard is that im not the only one who this happened to. Ask the bartender at the wrightwood in. Might want to check out bigbear or other places to have your outdoor wedding. read more

Beautiful venue but there were a few problems. How do you change the type of food that is too be served the day of the wedding? How do you cancel the rehearsal 2 days before because there is a wedding on Friday? You can't tell me they didn't know they had another wedding booked on Friday night weeks ago. There was a set of beautiful French doors in the brides room with a chair in front of it. They moved the chair to one side so they could take pictures of the bride in front of the doors. The woman from the office yelled at them to "put it back!". Really...they just moved it to one side. They didn't put it outside or steal it. Don't you think asking if they could please put it back when they were done would have been a better idea than yelling at a jittery bride. The same women kept yelling at them there were too many people in the room. Ok. We understand you can only have so many people in that small room, but try being nice. Another older woman with short brown hair was just plain nasty to anybody who asked her a question. She also helped serve dinner and was still snapping at people. My husband wanted to tell her off but I wouldn't let him. I didn't want him to add anymore stress to a day that was not how the bride wanted it. These two women soured the whole wedding. They were very rude to the wedding party and guest. The conversations during the wedding was how beautiful the setting was, how beautiful the bride was but could you believe how rude and nasty those two women were. The owner Richard was very nice but as the saying goes, someone with a good experience will tell 2 people, but someone with a bad experience will tell 10 people, who will tell 10 more and so on. read more