Day off...errands day...first I need to deposit funds in my zero balance account with Navy Federal Credit Union.. So how did you get a zero balance account, you might ask? Great question! I filled out an application for Navy Federal credit Union, which has only one branch in Round Rock, TX (suburb of Austin, TX). I was awaiting a call or email indicating I had been approved. Instead, I received a debit card and a bank statement with $0 balance. Well, I received a whole list of ATMs and credit unions where I could make a deposit. Credit union #1 from the list didn't exist. Next, went to Randolph Brooks Credit Union to make my deposit. They told me they do not take deposits for Navy Federal Credit Union. They did not offer to contact Navy Federal Credit Union nor help any other way! Ugggh! This credit union relationship is off to a great start. Nothing like being on a wild goose chase! Terrible customer experience.... read more

RBFCU - Seton - Banks & Credit Unions Near Me - Austin, Texas

=============== PROS: =============== * Staff has always been friendly and helpful to me. * Probably the lowest rate for auto loans around. * Once you have a Savings account, you can open a Money Market account online with just a few clicks, without having to visit a branch. * Coin machine lets you exchange your coins for bills with no commission. * Good system to get alerts by text message, much more useful/complete than Chase. * Website is pretty fast, faster than UFCU. Also doesn't stupidly spawn a new window/tab when you log in like UFCU. =============== CONS: =============== * Can download only the last 5 months of statements! This alone is so egregious I can't rate more than two stars. * Can see only the last 1.5 months of activity online. There's no obvious way to see older transactions, like a "Next page" button or link. There's actually a way to see older transactions, but it's both completely non-intuitive and extremely cumbersome: You click the "Search" button and type in your dates. (forehead slap) And when you do it that way, the site no longer shows you the running balance. * Can't sort transactions chronologically. * No memo field for account transfers. * Not a part of the national shared co-op branch network. * Payments on loans paid from an RBFCU Savings or Money Market account take up to one day to post. At UFCU, they're instant. * Pretty low limit for check deposits by mobile phone. I don't remember the limit, but it's lower than I have for UFCU and Chase. I would mention the amount here, but of course they don't bother to mention what the limit is on the Deposit screen of the app. read more

I'm choosing this location because it's where I signed up many, many years ago. I'm in the middle of transferring all of my accounts away from RBFCU. The reason for this is because they do not provide any kind of documentation to the customer indicating they have initiated a bank transfer, nor do they communicate with the customer in any way if a transfer fails for any reason. On two separate occasions, RBFCU has failed bank transfers which were for bill payments and not notified me in any way, or provided me any documentation to prove to anyone else that I'd even attempted a transfer unsuccessfully. The first time, late last year, I called them 7 separate times and every single agent was telling me I'd never initiated any transfer, and it was user error. I couldn't do anything to convince anyone that this was not true, because I had personally recorded the date and exact amount. It wasn't until I got tired of hearing this and escalated to some other department TWICE before a higher-up could finally admit that I had, indeed, initiated a bank transfer on the exact date I'd told them initially and for the correct amount. On this first occasion, the funds were not available back in my account even though it had failed, the funds were in some limbo and completely inaccessible to me, and they also had not reached their destination (an account at the same bank as my landlord, who was expecting to receive my rent transfer from it). It took over a week to resolve. While the escalations team who handled my case did offer to pay for any late fees I might've incurred, thankfully, my landlord trusted me enough on this issue that they did not implement any. Needless to say, I submitted the very unhappy feedback that they needed some kind of notification process for their customers for every step of this process. It was ludicrous that I had no evidence to show that I had initiated this transfer, nor any documentation to even show it had failed. While my landlord was very understanding even though they had absolutely nothing from me to prove I wasn't lying about trying to pay my rent to them, that could have gone very differently, and I could have easily been fined or removed from my home over this issue. The second time it happened was this February, but I only noticed it completely at random just this last week when I was going back through my own payment logs for a different reason. Again, my transfer payment of my rental amount to an account at a different bank had failed. This time, the funds were not unavailable to me, but I had no idea that my rent payment back in February never went through because there was no communication about the failed transfer. Thankfully, my landlord was unaware of this issue as the destination account had enough in it that I'd been able to make that transfer without realizing RBFCU had never sent my new funds for that month. When I called RBFCU again, I was very prepared when the representative told me I'd never initiated any bank transfer at that time and they couldn't see it, because I had made sure to ask the previous year where they were seeing it that all the other agents before them had not been looking in. As soon as I told the RBFCU agent how to do their job, they did see the failed transfer, and I again was put in the position of asking why nobody had bothered to tell me it had failed. Another escalation later, a supervisor very plainly told me that they do not have any plans to incorporate these kinds of notifications or documentation for customers, and essentially that it would just keep happening. A bank not having a thorough documentation or communication process for the transfer of funds is unimaginable to me, and after this second go-around with zero hope of any changes happening for the foreseeable future, I was done. I'm now closing all of my accounts and switching somewhere else, as enormous of a pain as this is. Really sad about it, I was happy with RBFCU otherwise. read more

Do you like having a bank that forces you to file an FBI report on them, because one or more of their employees are willfully complicit in a massive fraud against you? Then look no further! I first established an RBFCU account in San Marcos. Everything was fine for awhile, until I moved to Austin, which I ultimately found out is home to a ring of copyright frauds. As a creative person, people bite me all the time, but I was unprepared to deal with Austin's plagiarists. They took my ideas to other markets and profited, without even cutting me in. It came to a point where they had to intercept my Federal Income Tax e-file, and file fraudulent returns in my name, in order to make it look like I'd been paid for something widely attributed to me, when in fact, I was stiffed, and the money probably ended up in a numbered account overseas. Eventually, those IRS filings were deleted from the IRS database, as they were standing records of fraud against me, if I had ever compared notes with what I actually filed. But I did receive refund checks those years. So of course, I went to my bank's records, to see if they had copies of Treasury checks I'd deposited. But their records had been deleted as well! That was the result of nothing but shoddy hiring practices. It was most likely passing employees of both outfits (the IRS and RBFCU) who deleted my records. This on top of some other fishiness from the bank (even when I stopped using the account, I couldn't remove it from PayPal, because of a 'pending transaction', which wasn't on my end, so I could never cancel it) which occasionally caused overdraft fees, when PayPal hit a zero balance account. Every time I ever called RBFCU, it was some catty, shoulder-pad-suit bimbos who laughed at my problems. I can only imagine what tacky lifestyles they lead with the money entrusted to them. That's how getting away with fraud goes to people's heads. What unredeemable human garbage. Beyond that, they're simply a crummy bank, in that they drag their feet on every little thing, and make promises they don't fulfill. When I finally moved from Texas to Colorado, I tried to establish a new account, but a $160 overdraft At RBFCU was reported against me in the checks system. I promptly paid this, and demanded the records from my account, for which they charged me an extra $70. They said all this would be cleared up by a certain date, and it wasn't, necessitating a lengthy and embarrassing call with my new bank manager. On top of that, I still have not received the research, which I paid for! This bank is a fraud, and should be shut down by the feds. read more

I had a great experience at this branch. Great customer service. I recommend RBFCU. Great location.

If I could do 0 stars for this location, I would. 1. Still no drive thru..... 2. No signs that they have gone paperless. (Just trying to deposit cash and I'm looking around like I lost something!) 3. Need an ID to deposit any amount of cash into the account. Ok corporate, I get it. CYA. 4. Then this crazy "Teller 252" transfers all my savings into a money market account! My husband thought I had lost my mind. 5. Make sure you review your online transactions before leaving this facility!!! read more

First a disclaimer... I still have my three accounts with this crap bank. I became a member of this crap ola bank, because it came with my last wife. That should of been the "shot heard around the world" right there. Always thought that being a member of a CU would be better than having a run of the mill bank, better customer service, and perhaps better loan rates, CD rates etc... Let me say, this is a friggin myth at RBFCU. I have been a member for about 10 yrs now. I have a joint, single and a trust account for my mother. The trouble starts a couple of years ago, when I inquired about a car loan. I met with a banker, explained what I wanted to do, and she looked up the rate and quoted me something ridiculous. I asked her, are you kidding... she said well you have had many inquiries on your credit record recently.. err, no shit Sherlock.. I just bought a house, everyone and their mother was pinging my credit for phone, gas, water, mortgage companies...etc. I still have excellent credit! Their offer was 3% higher than what I got at the dealership. So much for benefits. Last fall, I wanted to move the majority of my mom's trust account to a higher paying CD, at Wachovia. I had shopped the rates, and they were much better than RBFCU. Since I had the money in a RBFCU Money Market account, which has the same account number as the trust account, which is the same account number on the only checks provided for the trust account, I purchased a Jumbo CD, with a check from trust. A week later I get a call from Wachovia, informing me my check was declined by RBFCU. I panicked, thinking something had happend to the account, only to find out, that I needed to transfer the money into trust checking account, before they would honor the check from the same account. WTF.. I crap you negative....this little event cost me about 800 bucks in lost interest, since the rate expired prior to being able to get them a new check. And now for the finale. I have a storage unit to hold some of my mom's things which cannot fit in her retirement home. It is an automatic draw from the debit card attached to the trust. Well, my bad, failed to notice that the card had expired 03/08. I got a call from the storage unit, telling me that it didn't go through, and I will be charged a late fee. I called RBFCU and asked why they hadn't sent me a card prior to the expiration. They told me they did, and it had not been activated yet. I searched the house and the office today, and couldn't find the card anywhere. Suzie walked in with the mail, and low and behold, here was the new card, arriving 3 weeks late, after being told it had been sent 3 weeks ago, curiously enough the post stamp date was the day I called to inquire where my card was...The result, a late charge from the storage unit since my direct pay was bounced. Steer clear of these folks, unless you like paying more for no service and poor rates. read more

I'm saddened. RBFCU is not the customer/member centered institution we joined more than 25 years ago. While still trading off that old reputation, they have allowed themselves to become simply another money hungry, ethics be damned, if it allowable by law (which we help make certain works in our favor), then by gum we'll do it. No matter what happens to the poor individual we use to care about. Now the pleasantries are forced, insincere platitudes the norm, and the goal is to separate You from Your Money as quickly as possible. This use to be the rare financial institution. One that would sacrifice a dollar or two to help its members. Now it expects its members to act for its benefit. So while it won't be tomorrow (I'm older and more deliberate), for the first time in 25+ years I will shop for a better place to put my money. Finally, know that it might have been a great place for your parents money, it doesn't appear it is a great place for yours and mine. Shame really. They gave a care once. Here's hoping they will again. In the meantime we need to find better. read more

Horrible....Member service and management. Showing available balance on my account still charge me a nsf fee when the money is there. Will not reverse...getting tire of dealing with rbfcu Chelsea F... I tried contacting you however member service would not help me with my issue again. Stated that I needed to contact you directly and that you were gone for the day. Can you provide me with a better way to contact you. Thanks read more

Not sure where to start. So I will list grievances from someone who gave them every chance to succeed. They took my credit score from 824 down to 587 because of Lack of caring, poor systems that don't talk to one another, inability to speak the English language, inability to recognize or educate me that autopay to me and everyone else in the world is not a recurring payment. It is a one time payment? I missed several payments because autopay to them means a one time payment over the phone. Seriously, if I have to call you to make a payment, that is not autopay. The fact that there are so many inept agents who actually believe the same thing is crazy to me. Maybe I am too harsh as the agents are not inept, maybe they are just dishonest? The irony is that I got this car for my children's nanny and that we have a Lincoln Navigator that has never had a problem as it has been on the real autopay whatever that means. read more

BLEH! Worst UI of a website ever. I got a car loan through them because of the low interest rates... which I wholeheartedly regret. Making payments on it is incredibly difficult, I'm not trying to pay it off and have spent hours on the phone with some of the least helpful, least intelligent people I've ever talked to. I'm trying to give them my money and they don't want to take it! Amazing business model. Nothing ever works properly, it's impossible to do anything, and nobody is ever any help. I will gladly spend hundreds, even thousands of dollars more to go elsewhere in the future for any other loans. read more

DO NOT Bank with them: I would like to say, a teller at their Lakeway location was extremely nice and helpful but it goes down from there: 1) My husband and I opened a joint account. Instead, they opened 2 different accounts and sent my information (including my debit card) to my old address in California. Very unsafe. 2) When trying to switch over our direct deposits/direct withdrawals, we were hit with several "courtesy fees" because the withdrawals came out before the direct deposit was made (the transactions were only a few hours off; at the most one day but were both still pending transactions.) When I explained this to them, they said they are on a "real-time system", so it doesn't matter if you make a deposit after a withdrawal to cover a payment, they will charge you!!!! That's so unreasonable.They did take 2 fees off but refuse to take the rest off. 3)They charge for bill pay!! WTH?? 4) Their online transfer system will not allow you to schedule monthly automatic transfers unless all the money is in your account. We were with them only for 2 months. Its a PITA but we are moving banks this weekend. So disappointed. read more

I have been a member of this credit union for three years. I have never had an overdraft or any sort of fee until today, when a transfer was initiated a day earlier than I expected and hit with an insufficient funds fee. I called in with hopes that they could give me a one time courtesy and waive this fee since I have been a loyal customer for over three years. I was met with a simple no, we don't do courtesy fee waivers. I have never been with a bank or credit union that doesn't work with their customers and help out their loyal ones when a mistake is made. I highly recommend you look elsewhere to another bank or credit union for your banking needs. Its clear this one is looking to just make money off you in unwaivable fees. I will be switching to another bank shortly. read more

Went to a new local branch to perhaps Xfer from another credit union I no longer want to do business with. Not only were the staff on duty clueless, but slow as all get out to offer any help. Guess I can mark this off the list of CU's to try to open a new account with. All the 1/2 star reviews are right, horrible bank! read more

A terrible bank with the worst employees ever. One of them is Agnes Madrid. It took them 3 months to make decision on my home loan application, when I got frustrated and spoke with them in regard to the delay and their unprofessionalism, they denied the loan. They lack all the basic skills necessary for good banking. read more

I have had the best experiences at RBFCU! Not only did my auto loan go through smoothly, but they also helped my recently transplanted sister set up a checking account...no questions asked and no fees charged. I go to the branch at 34th and Lamar and always receive the highest quality customer service, especially from the teller named Sarah....she even stayed 30 minutes after closing on a Saturday afternoon to help my sister cash some checks for a scooter. Thanks RBFCU! read more

I've been with RBFCU for over 7 years now and it wasn't until today that I was seriously upset with them. I've never over drafted my account and it wasn't until a few days ago that my Verizion wireless bill caused me to go over by $5.97 in my account. RBFCU rejected the payment and slapped me with a $24 NSF fee. I called RBFCU to see if they could do a one time courtesy fee reversal and was told, "No", "RBFCU is taking a stance to longer do courtesy fee reversals". I must say, I've worked in the financial services industry for over 10 years and I've never seen any institution decline a one time fee reversal. Placing limits on how many are allowed is absolutely fair however to not have the compassion to forgive a one time error on the clients side is just mean! read more

I have banked with them about 5 years. Had two loans and just refinanced my car, (bad Idea) I paid on time, for my loans, Lost job, right after I refinanced my car. Asked for and extension, on both the loan and the car. Mind you EVERY single other bank and credit card I own, gave me some time to catch up, because I pay on time. NOT RBFCU. They want MORE money, to Grant me more time? WHO DOES THAT? If I am begging for help, specially after paying on time for 3 years, there is a legit reason. But NOPE, still, pay money and MAYBE we will grant you and extension, as they are only allowed ONE per year. CRAP. Then They wont help me with the Car, because the LOAN is too new. Sorry I cannot schedule when I lose my job. STAY AWAY from this bank, they do not care to help you, and they do not care about their customers. SCAM read more

They will not cash checks that are from their own account holders unless they charge a 3% fee. They charge the fee because the person with the check, from their account holder and from their account at RBFCU, has 'the option' to cash it at their own bank. read more

Read the 20 one star reviews. Do not put your money in this credit union. You will live to regret it. There is a toxic culture here with no respect or personal relationship with membership. It seems like their agenda is to search for ways avoid any form of customer support. Two people in my family feel they were also ripped off to the tune of over a thousand dollars in both cases. Worst CU ive ever known. Read the 20 one star reviews. read more

I only gave them a one star because 0 wasn't an option. I am switching banks because I am tired of being treated like a criminal when I try to deposit a check. If I have the money to cover the check and I'm telling you that you can put a hold on it until it clears, the bank should do that and not make me wait 30 mins to tell me it will just be a little longer. read more

Dealing with RBFCU can be a joke. A payment processing vendor required me to provide proof that I owned an account there, a letter on bank letterhead and signed by someone at the bank, and they were unable to do it. Seriously--they are unwilling to provide a basic verification letter to a customer whose business needed it because ANOTHER bank was requiring it. That is absurd. read more

totally ridiculous that if you are a penny short on a transaction that they will charge your account the nsf because the account is in the negative a one penny. I guess that is how they make their money read more

If I could give my experience zero stars I would. This is by far the most frustrating loan experience I've ever had. We were approved online for loan. Came in to sign paperwork. Here we are 2 hours later going back and forth talking to people on a video monitor trying to finalize the damn thing. Poor, poor customer service. read more

Amateurs not professionals at mortgages. I couldn't begin to explain my disappointment. A joke really. All the way to the end of the process and they didn't do proper research. So I loose as rates increased over the time they wasted (months) Guess low rates is equivalent to low pay and professionals drop out from there. I should have known. read more

I hope RBFCU is okay with losing yet another good and loyal customer (12+ years) due to their unfair NSF fees and unwillingness to work with us. They should take a lesson from Wells Fargo when it comes to Courtesy Pay and NSF, especially when I had funds to cover it in savings. Wells Fargo only charges you one fee per day and charges a low fee of $12.50 if you exceed auto transfers from savings per RegD. Additionally, their alerts to notify you when your balance drops are worthless. They charge NSF based on pending transactions but notifications only work based on current balance. How convenient. I've pulled my money out and have taken it to a bank where they actually care about their customers. And don't even bother apologizing like you have on the other posts. The apology is scripted and insincere. read more

Horrible Service! I have a business account and multiple personal accounts with RBFCU. Looking to open another business account I have made over 5 requests (via in-person and email) to open this additional business account. Its been over 4 months and still waiting on a response. Additionally, I called the bank as I wanted a few checks printed and they said I could do this after hours via the drive-thru/walk-up teller. After sitting through traffic to get to RBFCU the teller said she could not provide the checks as it was against policy. If you value your time, I would advise potential future customers to look somewhere else.... holding cash under your mattress would probably be better. read more

I give RBFCU on N.Lamar 4 stars on a basis of "so far, so good "...They have been very helpful and friendly to me. No mistakes to report--yet--however, I've not had any complex business dealings with them so far. But that will change soon; stay tuned. Curious about why I initially chose this particular institution? 2 reasons: first, I had a clear desire to move away from a bank and into a CU, based on things I had read and anecdotal reports from friends and family. Second, RBFCU at this location is just under 2 short blocks from my residence. Transpo is an issue with me, so a CU I can walk to is definitely attractive. read more

I recently moved my checking account from CapitalOne to RBFCU. I could not be more impressed. Every employee at my branch location on lamar was extremely friendly. After moving my checking I talked to them about the rates on car loans and credit cards. I moved three credit card balances and cut my rate in half. The credit card rate is 7.9%. I also moved my two car loans and saved a bunch. I really like their online managment and bill payment system too. They even called me a week after I opened my account to ask me how things were going and to see if I had any questions. What bank will do that? I highly recommend RBFCU. read more

I tried to do an ACH transfer to buy some stock and I ended up with a penalty payment. I went to the the branch in KYLE and they were unhelpful and were discriminatory. I finally ended up taking most of money out of my checking and savings and am now exploring some legal remedies.. This is the most racist, biased unhelpful credit union I have dealt with in 50yrs. Please go somewhere else. read more

I have been a member for almost 20 years now. They used to be about the customer, but that is not the case anymore. I have a 2 personal and 1 business account. My business account is the most active. I don't feel like they should be treating a business account like a personal account as far as deposits and available funds. There have been no benefits for me as a business banking with them. NONE!! My BIGGEST issue with them is that they no longer show pending checks. I have money coming in and going out on a daily basis. I know exactly when money is going in, but unfortunately with checks, I don't know when it's coming out until it "clears". They should give businesses(and personal) accounts time to rectify a check. I have paid SO many fees to this company over the years. But I guess they have to pay for all those new branches that are popping up on every corner. I would NOT recommend this CU to anyone. read more

This bank needs work. I just got hung up on by a customer service agent after being on hold for a long time. They offered me a skip a pay for December but retracted it before I could use it. Since it was offered I didn't budget my month to include this payment and now don't have the money to pay it. On top of them screwing up my finances, I get hung up on while trying to fix this. Their ATMs are far and few in-between and are broken half the time and don't accept cash deposits. They have double deposited checks on more than one occasion the rbfcu app. Just get your loan and keep your business elsewhere. read more

RUN! I gave RBFCU one star because there is no zero. A terrible experience. They advertise a low interest rate, but you pay in time, aggravation and delays. First, you don't talk to real people, but wait half an hour to talk to someone on video. If you call, you wait 50 minutes on hold. I tried to consolidate some loans-RBFCU failed to fund on time, and didn't tell us it hadn't funded. When I called and asked why not, the person got very snippy because since RBFCU failed to fund the refinance, we now owed a late fee on a loan with RBFCU. We never found out why it didn't fund, but they got the late fee. They refused to give us another definite funding date or a bridge loan until they could reschedule. With late fees and interest (had to pay an entire extra year of interest on one loan), the consolidation loan that I never got cost over $800. I went down the street to another credit union and refinanced quickly for no cost. They also tried to get two payments one month when their records indicated we had paid! read more

RBFCU is an awesome credit union, y'all. You should check it out, especially if you're using a corporate bank. I didn't realize how much my high interest rates were weighing on me until I got an amazing rate from them when I refinanced my car--I was able to pay off all of my credit cards, and my new loan payment is only a few dollars more than what I was paying for my car before (with the 3 times as high interest rate). The customer service was also great--the woman who worked with me was very patient and took her time explaining everything and helping me decide whether I needed the warranty and GAP protection. I can't recommend them enough. They have saved my financial life (and I'm only slightly exaggerating). read more

I've had good luck with Randolph Brooks CU in the past so when I was looking to refinance my vehicle I checked out their website. I did the online loan application and was approved for a low 2.4% for my 2008 SUV. I was pleasantly surprised at how low the rate was compared to other places I had been looking. I went in on my lunch hour to finish up the paperwork, and the loan officer was very nice and easy to deal with. They made the load process very simple and I was out of there in about 30 minutes. I'd highly recommend checking them out for any loans you may need. read more

RBFCU Is not what it used to be . I myself took a moment to read most review in the past and disagree and today i recant m'y statement. Customer services is horrible and their staff acts as if it is a favor for them to help someone. They put me in a really difficult situation and Thank God there was a way to counterfeit it but seriously very horrible services. Their staff needs to be trained more. People don't realize that we all have bills and there is that one day where it just catches up to you due to a situation. I regret my entire time and monies going into their branch. Though there is a way for everything, and my advise for you is do not join if you care about how you are treated especially during hard times. We are all human and surely it catches up. Customer services I will rate them 1 out of 10. read more

Can't recommend them highly enough! So great trusting my money to somewhere OTHER than a bank. Lovely people, all across the board.

We have been members of RBFCU for more than 6 years but I have had my fill of that credit union! They are NOT friendly to small businesses and as such intentionally posted debits ahead of credits consistently so that the account would MOMENTARILY dip below 0. That way they could charge $24 courtesy pay fees. Furthermore they intentionally posted the largest debits first so that they could charge the courtesy pay fee for EACH transaction even though they had electronic credits waiting to be posted that more than covered what they called an overdraft! This is an UNETHICAL and underhanded way of doing business. It is NOT real time business transaction! Beware. You will be sorry if you do business with this RBFCU! read more

Wow.... The attention in this bank makes me think.....why the hell did I not join a Credit Union before?? I always had dealt with the big banks, my banks were/still are Bank of America and Chase. However, I never expected to get the level of attention I got in RBFCU. They are nice, attentive, with surprising technology for a credit union. One of the downsides of Credit Unions and the main reason I shied away from them in the past was because their tech tools (online banking, mobile, etc) were always lacking. Not in RBFCU, their App is actually better than Chases' app, their online banking in modern, and their customer service is similar to American Express if not better. I actually got a call the other day to see how I was doing with my new savings/checking account.....they called to see how I was doing.....not even my mom does that anymore. Honestly I couldn't be more please with this credit union, besides giving me the best rate for my auto loan, their other services like checking and savings are great, and their customer service has no match in my book. read more

I applied for a mortgage loan online,Tammy called me a couple of days later. She was curt,spent all of 2 minutes with me on the phone and said they couldn't approve me for the amount I applied for. She made no attempts to get more info from me or try and work with me. She basically said "good luck" getting the loan I asked for. Won't ever consider them for anything or recommend them. read more