My fiancé and I have lived at a Lapham Co property for the last year and we have nothing but good things to say about our experience. The building manager, building owner and leasing agents we spoke with were all very nice and helpful during our time with Lapham. Additionally, all the neighbors we met at our complex were friendly and respectful, for the most part. We never had any issues with the property or the management. The only reason we have chosen to leave a Lapham Co property is because we found another place down the road that is larger and fits our needs as a family at this time. I could definitely see us renting from them again. I would recommend this property management company to anyone looking for a place in the area. read more

I can hear every single thing the upstairs neighbor does. I even know when he's in the kitchen. I can hear every. Single. Footstep. Every noise from the above unit radiates throughout the whole apartment. I can't sleep or get any peace. Also, this same neighbor unlawfully entered my unit and the only solution was to call him. I do not want to be here. I do not feel safe. I do not feel comfortable but the property management company won't even respond to my calls or emails. I'll never trust Lapham again. The property manager, Jan, told me the owners don't care about the building. I wish he had of told me that BEFORE I moved in here. He even told me they'd never approve my transfer. So I was reluctant to ask to transfer to a completely different building which is what I wanted, especially in order to get away from the creepy neighbor that came into my apartment when the door was closed but unlocked during maintenance. My safety has been compromised and these people couldn't care less. It's baffling. I transferred units at the beginning of August. I used the thermostat once and it has been stuck at 80 degrees since August 1. Now I'm being told that the "vendor" won't be available until August 19th. I'm sure there must be more than one contractor in the Bay Area that can address this issue but no such option has been offered. I've also been told it will take the vendor so long to address my concern because "the building is old and multiple other units are having the same issue." I've never lived somewhere where there's no accountability. Just excuses. The building is old...deal with it. I regret this move every single day. I transferred units hoping to improve my circumstances but it's the same thing. I will NOT be renewing my lease. I should've trusted the 3 star overall rating. 3 is too high. I've been extremely stressed since moving into this unit. There's water damage in the unit and I can't get a response. I have to wait weeks for maintenance requests to be addressed and sending emails to management is similar to throwing a paper airplane into a black hole. I will be leaving as soon as is legally possible. It's also worth noting that whatever repairs were done were due to extensive advocacy on my part. And none were cosmetic. They literally had to replace the balcony door because it was initially installed upside down. It took them two months to believe me (I reported multiple times that I could not open the door) and another few weeks to actually install the door. Atrocious lack of accountability. read more

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Once upon a time, during undergrad, I rented from Lapham. They were professional and good communicators - both in the office and the on-site managers. However, that has obviously changed in recent years. First, I reached out to one of the property managers, Reda, to inquire about a unit. Immediately she lets me know that the specific unit I was interested in was soon to be off the market. She then suggested another property that she manages as well. I responded immediately and told her I was interested and wanted to schedule a visit. At that point the communication stopped on her end. The initial vacant unit I was interested in, is still on the website, still vacant, at this moment. This was nearly two weeks ago and she hasn't followed up with me about the initial unit I wanted, nor the other property I stated I would be interested as well. This is beyond unprofessional. What is she doing? Saving the unit for family or friends? Did she not like my name, so she decided to ignore me? Again, beyond unprofessional. I reached out to another property manager for this same company, Bruk. Now he was a breath of fresh air; responsive, informative and professional. He even sent me an email with additional information/instructions and suggested I reach out to the office to answer any other questions I had re the application process. This "company" never responded to me. Nothing. When I rented from them in the past, I had no issues and paid my rent on time, every month. I later moved to a property managed by J&R Associates, and I see now many, if not all, of their properties are now handled by Lapham. In all, this was a complete waste of time, but more so, it was disappointing. I'm assuming the people who were in office at the telegraph office, the property managers on site while I rented from this place are no longer there. This place has gone completely downhill. I could only imagine how worse it would've been for me if I actually signed a lease with them. read more

Lapham Company - No response. - Property Management Near Me - Oakland, California

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They are incredibly slow at maintenance requests, and blamed it on me when I asked why it was taking so long. My heater has been broken more than a week during one of the coldest weeks in December and I got sick last week because of it. I've been waiting a week for someone to come fix it and when I check in about the maintenance request, their answer is I should have checked the heater earlier not when I needed it. It's not the tenants responsibility to make up for how many people the property management serves. If they can't handle the high flow of maintenance requests for heaters in cold months maybe don't manage so many properties. Or plan for it!! I've been freezing my butt off and never in my life have I had to wait this long just for my heater to be fixed. read more

always more and more disappointed with Lapham and just logged on to pay my rent with the new portal to see a 10 dollar transaction fee?! get out of town! they literally do NOTHING for their tenants but make life more difficult. I moved in 3 years ago to find paper thin, heat absorbing plastic blinds in my west facing apartment. during these summer heat waves my apartment literally stays in 80-90 degrees with zero relief. and they expect to me to pay to replace the blinds in full! for their property! make it make sense, please! they do not care about their tenants safety or well being. if you can get anyone to respond to you, they treat you like an inconvenience. you can even see here in these responses, they way they ignore real and valid concerns from the people who pay for their livelihood and only respond to the positive reviews. it's very upsetting. shame on everyone squeezing money out of their tenants at Lapham! if you do need help from these people, I suggest reaching out to a lawyer or local tenants union for legal representation to help with your claim. Oakland: https://www.oaklandtenantsunion.org/ Barkley: https://www.berkeleytenants.org/ read more

As both a former tenant and employee of this company, I can confidently say they are poorly managed from the top down. Upper management is unprofessional and becomes hostile when their mistakes are exposed. During my time as a building manager, I learned about several questionable practices. For example, the company employs a maintenance service with family ties to management--an ethically questionable arrangement. The maintenance costs are clearly marked up, and these inflated expenses are passed onto residents, often as justification for annual rent increases. Long-term residents, in particular, are treated poorly, with appliance replacements frequently denied if they break down. The reasoning? "We want newer residents to stay longer since their rents are higher than older residents." My employment ended when the company fabricated "poor performance" records to push me out, simply because I wouldn't play along with their unethical practices. This explains why many building managers appear unresponsive--if they try to advocate for tenants, they risk being fired. As a tenant, my experiences weren't much better. For example, the building manager rekeyed our building and didn't provide a replacement key for my roommate, effectively locking her out. The company refused to resolve this, claiming she had "already moved out," even though her name was still on the lease and they held her liable for any move-out charges. Additionally, excessive noise complaints from other tenants were ignored, seemingly to drive out long-term residents like myself so they could raise rents for new tenants at market rates. Discrimination is another serious issue. Others have noted this, and I can't disagree based on my experience. A former building manager received numerous complaints for discriminatory behavior, yet the company took no action. When I first toured the building, the manager asked if I had children, what my race was, and if I was a student--questions that are illegal to ask (and explicitly covered during their own training). She even refused to let my father join the tour, forcing him to wait in the car for "security reasons." For context, I am a person of color. I can't say if other property management companies are any better, but my experience with this one was awful. Their practices and behavior are deeply concerning for both tenants and employees. read more

I had a great experience w three years at Lapham. Maybe because I had an on-site property manager, but they always did maintenance requests right away. Good deal, lots of space and great location (Adam's Point). Inspired to post because I moved out of Oakland recently and looking at review of other places now and was surprised Lapham had such a low rating. Two other friends use Lapham and have had good experiences too. read more

Re 201 Prospect Avenue in Danville: Good news is that maintenance crew is attentiive. Bad news is that management - if you can call it that - is two-faced. Lease agreement and interview process relates no smoking anywhere on the property. Local City of Danville and Contra Costa County have a no smoking ordinance on the books as well. But more than half of the residents smoke every day on the property. They also invite several friends to party each and every week, and chain smoke as well. Management always related that they couldn't do anything about it unless they witnessed it themselves. But they never come to the property unless it's to bring in new tenants. Agent Travis Bell presents himself as a nice person, but never takes any reasonable action against any tenants. Owner Jon Shahoian takes the same position. Also no action on loud parties which go into late evening hours. And if you enjoy Romanian gypsy music by the BBQ area almost every evening, then this is the place for you. Overall, for $2,700, it's nothing more than a Motel 6. read more

RUN If this is the property management company for a place that you are thinking of moving to, they are the worst at communicating with tenants, we had issues from the initial tour until their contact with the building finished. If I could give it 0 starts I would do it. If you want a response from them go in person to their office, they will lie to your face with excuses like "my computer was acting up and couldn't see your communications" or "we were about to tackle that issue" but at least you are not ignored by email. Some of their employees also made us feel discriminated against. We had issues with brake-ins, unauthorized parties, stolen mail, mold, homeless people roaming around the premises and more, they never did anything to solve the problems. I feel bad for the maintenance guys, for our building was only one guy that cleaned the hallways, did the gardening, general maintenance and other activities that will have his hands full having him prioritize repairs, that shouldn't be his call. During the winter they ignored any of the complaints from the other tenants about the heater. Long story short this company sucks, just run as fast as you can!!!!! read more

Lapham Company - Problems with leaks that caused mushrooms to grow in the walls - Property Management Near Me - Oakland, California

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I just moved out of 243 Athol Ave. There were folks smoking in the building, fleas, and zero support from Lapham Co about many of the issues we had. They would send emails addressing safety concerns but bikes were constantly stolen out of the garage and just a lot of issues with the building in general. They collect your rent and then either ignore your emails or are rude. They can't seem to get a straight answer on how much I owe for the last payment I owe them and they couldn't locate my check, then the next day said they have it and are cashing it after advising me to cancel it so now it will bounce. I sent another check for a different amount as another associate started asking me where my last rent check is and had a different amount listed, so now I am talking to two people who are telling me two different things and it is just such a mess. They were unhelpful through every step of the process and now I can't just pay my rent and be done. It shouldnt be this hard. This company is not helpful. read more

I have never in my life experienced such a negligent company. I've dealt with mold, roaches, a hole in the ceiling and not a single reply from management. They have also 'lost" several rent payments and refuse to acknowledge receipts. They also lied in regards to legal proceedings which have never been filed. I'm now attempting to find a competent contact at the company and refer this to a lawyer. STAY AWAY! read more

These are very negligent landlords and property owners. Our neighborhood has struggled with them for many years to no avail. Right now the front yard is 3 to 4 ft high with weeds. They are uncooperative and they do not care about the neighborhood in which they own property. They have refused to respond to neighbors requesting that they mow the front yard. And they made a deal with another neighbor to pay half of the fence repair that runs between the two properties and then never paid it Even after being reminded and asked over and over again. The tenants are not allowed to do anything in the front yard neither are any neighbors. They raised the rent about 3 and 1/2 years ago forcing out the then current tenants and then left the house empty for over 2 years. They have declined our invitation to come to our annual block party for 20 years, and no one on the street has ever met any of the owners. They are the worst property owners possible. read more

This company is trying to establish a rental monopoly by buying up all the available apartments and raising rents without valid reasons. Avoid them if possible. read more

Kept part of my security deposit on bogus grounds and refused to answer my emails. This company is incredibly sleazy. DO NOT rent from them.

Lapham took over management of my building about 10 years ago. Over that time, they let the building become run down. Gardening not addressed more than 2x a year. Weekly cleanings, became monthly cleanings and then for a time zero cleanings in the common areas for over 3 months. They would flat out ignore some maintenance/service requests until you showed up to their offices. If you own a property, skip Lapham they will run your investment into the ground. read more

I live next to a house manage by this company There is an old tree on their property that they don't take care of It overflows to my roof and yard I called and wrote them several times They told me to be patient Now 7 months later they have not contacted me My roof was inspected and the leaves have damaged the roof The company is non responsive sarcastic cruel When I called to speak to the head of the company and left a message he didn't have the decency to call back I saw someone wrote there are young girls in their 20s not answering the phone That is my experience too read more

Rented an apartment for 1.5 years from Lapham. The move in/move out process was very straight forward and went smoothly. During my time there service requests were always responded to promptly and everyone in the office was kind. I also appreciate that the company was honest with the move out inspection and returned my full deposit/money owed on time. Would rent from Lapham again! read more

Heather from Lapham Company has been an incredible help in sorting out a security deposit issue with the new owners of our building. She has gone above and beyond to provide the exact documentation we need and is so responsive. I really appreciate the service we have received from Heather and Lapham! read more

If you try to use a HUD voucher with Lapham company at the nicer properties they manage they will mettle insidiously they will not rent to you They have a song and dance ploy they use on people they don't want to rent to who are using section They will provide all documents required by HUD HUD requires a copy of management services contract between the property owner and lapham company In my case lapham company failed to provide this document and claimed what they did have did not match up with the county records which was not the case I checked the county grant deed Info for the property after the fact and found that lapham company has been providing management services to the current owners since they bought the building they lied about lack of documentation created a delay and made it seem like HUD program fault and then rented the unit to someone else this is what housing discrimination looks like slithery snakes a plenty read more

Latham Realty is a horrible run company - They do not keep there facts straight and export people to your credit report I do not recommend them at all - You will not get your deposit back - Trust me read more

I really like living in the Lapham property they are professional and keep the building clean and they are responsive

This stupid company has nothing but crooks, lazy, pathetic, never work, or answer the phone and never return repeated calls. Nia is never at work, or seems to not want to work. I've been trying to get my deposit returned from Nia, since May 2022 and is now almost February 2023. Nia is always out of the office, away from her phone, on vacation, or just doesn't want to be doing her job. As it seems, she is the only accountant in the office. No one else is an account in their office or can speak with the resident about any type of money needs. I seriously don't understand why the Lampham Company and J&R Associates don't lwork with their residents or treat with residents with respect. Residents are only dollar signs. They want their money asap but when the resident needs their help... FORGET IT! read more

I'm not sure where else to ask if other Lapham residents have had a similar situation. Our upstair neighbor throws their heavy weights at his ground, we have documented, which is visual ceiling damage in our apartment. We were told we need the property managers need to experience how loud it is, even after they came into our apartment and verbally said how weird and disturbing this was. The original complaint resulted in signs posted on all doors and common areas saying that making combative noise in response to neighbors, during legal common hours, is not allowed. Obviously. This continues to happen, they throw their weights at the ground... We have literal cracks and proof coming down on our ceiling right below them... Property managers have seen this and acknowledged it. Lapham would like proof in the form of having the managers hear the noise to determine if it's loud enough. That's insane. It's like someone slamming their door and asking them if they can do it again for the record. My roommate and I both have recordings on our phones, but Lapham can't determine if they are loud. They should provide something to record the decibles, considering that seems to be something they consider to be legitimate, and would have prior legal standing, according to the property managers. Just checking in to see if anyone else is not getting the support from this rental agency because it's disgusting. If you have a decibil meter that you're willing to lend, please PM me. Thanks. read more

Lapham has properties on nearly every block in North Oakland. I live right off of 40th, literally down the street from the office and it's a hassle getting email responses from them. I know they get them because there will be a response, only months later. They're not terrible in my experience, stuff gets done eventually and they tell us days in advance when utilities are interrupted for service or whatever (well, water specifically. And that issue has been fixed completely just recently). It's unfortunate that many others have had crappy experiences with them. I just live here and it's sort of just... not terrible to deal with. read more

I recently moved out of a property in Oakland that Lapham Company was managing and I'm very pleased. The move out was just as easy as the move in and everything was on the up and up. No funny business. I had a walk through with management they were courtesy enough to tell me what to do so I could get my full deposit back. I did exactly what was expected of me and I'm also glad to say I was reimbursed for curtains that I bought for the unit I rented. They didn't have to do this for me but they did. They went half on them and it was more than I expected. I'm pleased with how the management handled my move out process and I'd gladly work with them again. I received my deposit in full in less than 20 days and I'm glad I dealt with an honest company. Thanks Lapham!!! read more

The WORST property management company ever. This company is ran by a bunch of 20 year old girls in this office, sit on there phones all day, decline tenants phone calls, when they do answer they display and tell false information about apartment buildings. There's constant break ins with no response from them, or even cops ( every night someone has come by and tried breaking down front doors, neighbors have been broken into while sleeping, came home to intruders hanging out in our apartments,...ext) you never hear back from the apartment complex. On top of that Broken appliances that never get fixed, no running water, and constantly trying to raise our rent after concerns brought to there attention. WORST COMPANY EVER. Down below is just 1 incident from when we've came home to a guy just chillin on our couch after he destroyed everything, got blood on everything. Shocking weeks with no response until I said I'm breaking my lease. Stay far away from this company. read more

Lapham Company - Property Management Near Me - Oakland, California

Awful communication. Not only do they not respond to important questions, but when they do they are very rude. It was like dealing with an internet troll. They treat property owner and tenants awfully. They hold significantly more money in their trust accounts than agreed upon. Do not give your business to Lapham, they are TERRIBLE. read more

I got a notice on my door to enter for seismic and termite inspection on Lapham Property Management letterhead. Interestingly enough, Lapham is not the property management company for my building and are in fact not affiliated with my building in any capacity! When I called the cellphone number written on the notice, I got a hold of Matt Treadway, a Lapham agent. Matt was very rude to me on the phone (and rude to my girlfriend in person, as she was the one to actually let him into the complex that morning) and very angrily told me that it was "illegal" to deny this company, which I've never heard of, access to my home after telling me he was doing this as a "favor" for the landlord. So I called the Lapham office and eventually got connected to the manager(?) John. John was also very rude at first, and obviously had no idea what this notice was about and came up with this bizarre story about how "maybe" the current owner of my building was in the process of selling the property to Matt. He said that, in this scenario he just made up, that "maybe" Matt would be the new property manager by the time the entry date arrived, four days later. When I told John that I'm in the process of suing my landlord for harassment and it seemed like his company was doing freelance harassment on his behalf, he got really flustered and started pretending like he was going to get to the bottom of it for me. He didn't. I didn't hear back from these guys again until Matt showed up for the inspection and I didn't let him in because I know my rights as a tenant. Never heard another word about this from anyone at Lapham or my actual landlord. So in short, these clowns at Lapham are doing contract work/favors for slumlords in Oakland. They run their operation with blatant disdain for renters and they very much seem to deserve the bad ratings they have on here. read more

Lapham Company - The notice - Property Management Near Me - Oakland, California

It's easy to take a good landlord for granted when you don't have a worse one to compare them to. Lapham Company was a breath of relief among a series of horrible experiences elsewhere. They did exactly what a property management should do: provide helpful answers during the application and signing process, handle maintenence requests promptly, and leave you alone the rest of the time. Heather was particularly pleasant to work with. When some of the lease terms were confusing, she clarified them in writing for me. And Kara found me a parking spot on short notice when I needed a place to leave my car for a week. Keith the maintenance guy was friendly and communicated well. They returned my deposit in full and on time. Ain't that a miracle? I'd definitely rent through Lapham again. read more

They are the worst property management company I have ever dealt with. they simply don't respond to emails or phone calls. Our building gets broken into all the time, we report it, and they don't respond. They refuse to install cameras or add fencing. The on-site managers do next to nothing. We had a gas leak in the building and they didn't respond, and residents had to call the Fire dept. One of the one-site managers is here all day, but can't or wont leave her apartment to meet vendors, or do anything really. They have six children in a 2 bedroom, and make their children clean the building and bring in the recycling bins. We went without getting mail delivered for 5 days because the on site manager didn't provide USPS with the door entry code. Lapham seems to want to provide the lowest level of service possible so they can keep a steady rotation of people moving in and out, raise the rent in between, and we as tenants don't ever feel safe where we live. read more

It's so bad they're not even worth my review. But theyre, misleading, If your working ,low income , African American StAy AwY!!

A month ago I filled out an application for a property. At first I waited a week to follow up and got no response. Then two weeks go by I still don't hear back from anyone even though they promise to do so. It's gotten to the point where I've called every day and I'm still getting ignored. The only attentive person is the sweet lady who works at the front desk. I don't understand how places like this except a $40 application fee but can't even be responsible enough to call back and say "yes or no". These people don't care about the livelihood of others and it's sickening to have to get to a point where I have to personally come to the building to get an answer back. read more

A really bad property management company. Luckily the onsite manager is great. Jennifer from the office whom was the main point of contact is very unprofessional and argumentative. Replaced with another property management company. read more

When you have have to request maintenance in your apartment they give you the run around and they do not maintain the property. I have had busted out windows in my building for months now despite me reaching out to have them fixed or boarded up. They are a very shady company. read more

Finding an apartment in the bay area is HARD. Lapham has a policy of renting to the first applicant that meets the criteria of a good tenant. This helped us secure our apartment through them. Our time at the property managed by Lapham was great, when we needed repairs they would send someone. We also had a great resident manager available at the property pretty much 24/7. We moved out of town and received our full deposit minus some nominal cleaning fees. I have experience with nightmare landlords and dealing with Lapham as a Property Management company was so much better. Very professional. read more

Giving this a one star because Charlotte is the rudest person I have fortunately never actually met and only spoken on the phone with. I ask some questions about receiving my deposit back from having moved out over a month ago, and she acts as if we should all already know everything and gives attitude when she has to explain. What kind of customer service is this?? Horrible tone of voice, impatient, and a complete displeasure to talk to, also hung up on me while I was trying to ask another question. When I said I had been through this deposit situation before so I expected everything to be the same, she rudely kept explaining how "by law" things are done differently in California and by the company. I said I went through this same situation a year ago with Lapham in CA.... "oh" was her response followed by another rude comment. Never had a problem with this company until now. It's funny how one rude and sassy employee can leave a bad taste in your mouth about the whole company. read more

I lived in a Lapham property for over a year in Berkeley as a student. I think that overall they are a good management company. Our building manager was always responsive to maintenance requests and other questions, and the leasing agents also were polite and professional whenever we talked to them. As a student you hear horror stories of landlords around Berkeley so I think my roommates and I were satisfied with how we were treated by Lapham. During my time living in that apartment we required maintenance 2x that I can remember, once for plumbing and once to replace our dining room light. Both times it was taken care of pretty quickly and without hassle. read more

Excellent Property Management Group!!! The Staff Are Supportive and Responsive and Allow Residents To Live With Dignity And Respect!!! Thanks for everything!!! read more

Manipulative property managers, and clearly their reviews are artificial from 2015. We were made promises a month prior to our lease ending and after email confirmation, property managers revoked their word with days to on our lease expiration. Rather than letting us know as soon as possible, they waited two weeks after constant communication to respond to our emails and trapped us in to resigning a lease without anywhere else to go. read more

Grossly incompetent. It takes REAL EFFORT to be this bad. 3 friends and I rented an apartment managed by them for two years in Berkeley. Right from the start, it was clear that the staff was grossly negligent. We would send emails back and forth with the rental agent (Velina Barnes) with a list of probably 4-5 questions and EVERY TIME she would only answer one of them. What could have been a simple exchange would always turn into a LONG relay back and forth as we kept asking her the questions she didn't answer, and she kept answering only one of them. I don't get it, was there an internal policy of never answering more than one question at a time? Always keep us guessing? Doesn't make sense. Then when I went to pick up my keys to move into the apartment, the keys they gave me did not work. They tried to tell me that because they were newly cut, they might not fit perfectly and I might have to jiggle it around, but these keys straight up just DID NOT WORK. I must have spent over 2 hours trying to open the door when I finally gave up and went back to the office to complain. Mind you, during this time period I called their office to ask if this was normal and they tried to pin it on me not knowing how to open a door or wiggle the key right. They then pulled out a second set of keys from the previous tenant that worked: I just don't understand why they wouldn't start out by giving me those keys, which were proven to work, and instead give me some shoddily cut keys. As another reviewer said, they only care about getting the rent in on time, but they can't even do that properly. Here are three incidents: #1. I was using automatic billpay to pay my rent and with the change of a calendar year I forgot to renew the service. I caught it a few days after the fact and was totally fine with paying a late fee. Instead, Lapham posts a EVICTION NOTICE on our door saying that we are missing rent and will be evicted if it isn't paid ASAP. So I call to find out the situation, especially since my bank says they have already sent a check to Lapham and it has been received. After multiple calls back and forth, it turns out Lapham DID have the check, just on their desk in the "to process" pile. In other words, they saw that we were missing rent, and instead of looking through their mountain of checks that haven't yet been processed, they just immediately send us an eviction notice with no prior warning. #2. Again, we get a surprise eviction notice. And again, all of us check our bank and see that checks have been sent AND CASHED. Meaning, Lapham has all our money but somehow is claiming that they don't. I call again to find out the situation, and again after much back and forth, it turns out there's another tenant with my exact same name, and instead of thinking harder and trying to use any semblance of critical reasoning to cash the check into the correct account, they just cash in into her account and hit us with an eviction notice. The lady I spoke to then had the nerve to blame ME for not putting my address in the memo line, even though I was NEVER told to do that. #3. The exact same situation as #2 happens: We get hit with an eviction notice and I call and ask, and turns out they cashed my check into the other person's account AGAIN. The lady then AGAIN tried to lecture me about putting my address on the memo, so I pointed out that I learned from last time and DID put the address on the memo, to which she at least had the decently to sound sheepish. So glad to have moved out. read more