A great used record store with a huge selection of vinyl, CD and tapes. All genres of music can be found here, with many available for the low price of a dollar or two. If you have time and patience to hunt through the bargain bins you will no doubt find something to appease. And really, for a dollar, you can't go wrong with whatever you pick up. Some other albums are a bit more expensive, but still good value. Staff are friendly and leave you to browse in peace, but are willing to help when asked. read more

Folks, running a retail outlet like this takes a lot of stamina and patience. Every customer thinks they know more about the subject than you do just because they read a review online. I'll say that Zulu has always been awesome to me for 20+ years. In fact, one time, they were able to pick out an obscure jazz album for me from me just humming a few bars and trying to repeat some of the lyrics. That's especially impressive because I sound like a hippo playing a kazoo when I sing. Anyways, highly recommend and worth going back to for the joy of discovery. read more

Rude service from who I assumed was the owner (middle-aged male, white hair, scruffy). This occurred over a week ago (just after Christmas 2023). I was going to let it go, but a friend has told me of a similar experience at Zulu Records a couple of days ago, and so I decided to come forward here. I had inquired about going upstairs to browse through the discounted records, and was told that there was probably "nothing for me" in that section (whatever the heck that meant...I can draw some conclusions) even though he had no idea of what I would be looking for. Keep in mind this isn't the first I've heard of this. I won't be going back to this store. I suggest visiting the Main Street (Neptune and RedCat Records) and downtown vintage record stores (BeatStreet) instead. The ironically named "Zulu" may have a decent collection of LP's but the service from management is ghastly. read more

Just had the most insulting experience I've had in a store. I'm in town from Hawaii for the Holiday season, and stopped by Zulu on West 4th Avenue on Jan 12 around 4:45 PM to buy one of the vintage Christmas albums that they had in the window (or bin). Within seconds of browsing, the owner (GRANT McDonagh) comes up to me and LOUDLY (in front of other customers) told me to leave immediately. Baffled, I replied "WTF??", only to be told by him that he had told me to leave two times before in the past. He arrogantly replied "Are you denying it??? I'll just go upstairs and confirm it right now!!" in a super cocky manner. And he did. I waited furiously for him to come down with another staff member, who looked at me and promptly stated that I was NOT the individual. Grant proceeded to try and explain that "I LOOK JUST LIKE HIM" (yes, he pulled that ignorant and potentially bigoted #FitTheDescription garbage). His attempted apologies were overshadowed by his incessant repetition of the fact that I look like the criminal. ALL he had to do was speak to me quietly (when he ignorantly mistook me for a criminal) but instead he embarrassed me in front of everyone. I PLEAD to anyone who reads this - do not reward this type of behavior. DON'T SHOP at ZULU Records. read more

Since i moved to kitsilano from the Mt Pleasant area, Zulu is my favorite record store because of the huge selection they have and value. I have found many of my "most wanted" lps there ( Tim by the Replacements, Once Upon a Time by Siouxsie and the Banshees, Straight Up by Badfinger, Concert by the Cure) at a very reasonnable price and in good condition. My only negative point is that due to the size of their inventory the grading is sometimes off , some of their lps are in rough shape but hey?thats the risk of buying used records i guess. Love your store! read more

This borders on a "hole in the wall "business. The owner or whoever it was seemed totally bored. The selection is poor and so is the listing of artists. Kind of like a garage sale type of atmosphere. There are much better and less congested places and trying to find parking on 4th is a nightmare plus expensive to feed those meters. I would recommend a mask if there are more than six customers in this close environment. read more

I was treated so rudely by a staff person this past weekend that I will not be returning to Zulu or giving them any of my future business. I am brand new to the world of records... a friend of mine gave me her record player along with some records. I've been into Zulu before and heard they sometimes buy records off people so I thought I'd bring in some of the ones that weren't of interest to me. When I got into the store, I started off by telling the man that I have basically zero knowledge so I wasn't sure of the condition or value of the records. He was so rude! Rather than kindly explaining to me that all of my records were poorly maintained he proceeded to say things like 'well THATS a problem' and 'this is no good' with a huge snobby attitude even after I pled ignorance and tried to explain I wasn't expecting to come in and be given anything. Surely, I can't be the only person walking into a record store with no knowledge. It's a new interest of mine, so why wouldn't you want to be kind, maybe even a tad educational to encourage future business!? This man's pretentious and smug attitude left me feeling embarrassed and stupid. My friend who was with me also thought his behaviour was ridiculous. When she asked me if I wanted to stick around to browse, I said 'nope, I'm never buying anything here again'. I just hope this person is not any part of management... The store itself is very cool, I love the vibe of it and could spend hours browsing. But having a cool space doesn't mean the customer experience can be trash. read more

Came in looking for some Michael Franks CDs which understandably they didn't have any. Inquired at the counter and the person kindly offered to order one in for about $30, but the thing is I can get the exact same thing online for $12 shipped to my door. I try to support independent, brick and mortar stores as much as i can, but it's a case like this making it pretty hard to justify the effort. read more

As a high school student, I always used to find Zulu Records' employees incredibly intimidating, especially whenever I made the mistake of wandering in while still wearing my school uniform. Those withering looks... oh, the shame! There was a definite Empire Records vibe to the place, minus an annoying Renee Zellweger doppelganger. Moving on, unlike most music stores of late, Zulu steers away from the mainstream emporium feel and focuses on providing customers with quality music. In other words, music unlikely to come packaged alongside some synchronized dance routine. Emphasis is placed on independent musicians but more established ones pop up regularly in the shelves. The used section may be a limited but for those who stubbornly cling to their turntables, a decent array of vinyl is available. Concert tickets are also sold here. read more

Zulu Records - Music & DVDs Near Me - Vancouver, British Columbia

Most of our record collection is delightful happenstance, but there are a few that we've purchased for more than a dollar. And in this quest for specific artists, Zulu offers lots of selection at predictable prices. Most recently my boyfriend got a double Doors album here for $15 and a Bob Dylan record for $13. Not bad prices, but I'd rather strain my neck looking through the thrift bins. As mentioned in other reviews, Zulu is a axis of Vancouver's music scene when it comes to ticket sales. read more

Zulu Records - Music & DVDs Near Me - Vancouver, British Columbia

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The need for analogue is always pulling me toward film and vinyl, and Zulu's acts as a fix for this addiction and need. Hit or miss, though, particularly since it's been downsized; still the laid back feel, and some very good vinyl on a lucky day, but the overall vibe has changed with the smaller space. The stations for listening seems to have decreased, and overall it's a bit more shabby than chic, but I understand things need to change particularly when the rent has to be astronomical on 4th. When in the area always will stop by just to see what's what and pick up something that assuages analogue fog, but can't say will run there regularly. read more

I was thrilled to stumble upon this place, a wonderful (mostly-) used record store! I found some great jazz LPs to bring back home with me as a souvenir of Vancouver. Though I wished for even more stock/selection, what they had was wonderful, and everything I looked at (and subsequently bought) was in great shape and pretty fairly priced. Either I just had good luck picking a dozen almost-pristine LPs, or they scrutinize their stock carefully. Zulu was cheaper than two other vinyl stores I went to while in town, and with better quality stock. Recommended! read more

Excellent variety and constantly new vinyl collections coming in. Great tunes and informative dudes. Concert tickets and stereo equipment. Best of all, it's a local business and supported by us! I have no problem spending the shipping money I would normally need for Amazon vinyl here instead. read more

Zulu is great. If I didn't drive to Seattle once a month or so, Zulu woud be my regular record store. (Oh, guess I'm old with that record thing. I mostly buy CDs but I do sometimes buy vintage records, and you can get both at Zulu). Their recommendations are spot on, no matter what your interest. (Okay, if your interest is Britney Spears, maybe not, but if your interest is Lykke Li you'll be fine.) Great selection of new & used CDs, plus records for those of you who are interested. And they sell tickets to the better shows around town. Plus, celeb spotting, if you care. This is where some visiting celebs come to browse while they're in town. I've seen a couple of celebs just browsing...FWIW. My only problem with Zulu is that I go to Seattle a lot, and I can get the same CDs down there at Easy Street Records for half price, in many cases. So I tend to look & listen at Zulu (often after having heard things on KEXP anyway), note what I want, and pick it up down in Seattle. Would love to patronize Zulu, but I just can't justify a 100% markup for shopping closer to home...sorry. read more

I've been to Vancouver twice, and Zulu Records both times. This is because my boyfriend loves record stores, but I go along willingly. Zulu is in a cool area with lots to do. I think there's even a book store next door. The layout of the store is kinda rambling and open, with several different levels and *may* include a spiral staircase to the upper level (I may be making that up). I like the feel of the store, reminds me of Cheapo in St Paul and Easy Street in Seattle. There are a few tables and chairs around, a unique and welcomed touch. There are also some vintage arcade games, not sure if they work or are just for decoration. I asked my BF why he likes Zulu and he said: good prices, the vinyl selection, and how the listening stations help you find local acts that he wouldn't hear of otherwise. On our last trip he also found a couple CDs that would be imports -- and hence more expensive -- back in the ol USA, so he was happy about that. We both like the listening stations/previews and helpful descriptions included with many of the CDs. I find the used CD section to be vast and plentiful. It's sad seeing book and record shops close down in Seattle. Zulu seems to be a local institution and I hope everyone supports such a cool store! read more

I've spent more money at Zulu Records than any other store on earth. Seriously. I think we're in the 5 figure range. What keeps me coming back is the fun of browsing, discovering, listening and observing. I've seen the store change over the years, from the cramped aisles of its previous location one block east, to it's changing staff and arrival of a new generation of clientele. It keeps evolving. I've kept laying out cash and returning home with bundles of listening pleasure. The changing times have seen a growth in the size of the record section, an increase in the number of concert tickets available, but sadly has eliminated a lot of the CD collection. Don't fret, it's still one of the better places to look for used CDs. Just head upstairs, where it's well-organized by arrival date, and then alphabetically. I've been able to find many a recent or rare CD up here. They've always offered listening stations, and almost anything can be previewed. Bring extra change because you'll be running outside to put more in the parking meter. read more

Selection of CDs are decent but not spectacular. Their vinyl section is relatively weak. A lot of thrashed looking wax. Prices are a little high for new CDs. Hit and miss with the staff. Some are friendly, others reek of undeserving smug douchebaggery. The store itself has a cool layout. This place has gone way down in the past ten years. The selection of new and used stuff was much better. Place is looking more run down each time I go there. What happened? Place needs better management or at least someone who gives a damn. read more

This place has downsized. Can't say I like the change too much but I understand that rent must not be cheap on west 4th. Not too happy about their selection anymore. The store is very cramped and prices have increased. The 99 cent section upstairs isn't the greatest anymore. We come a lot less often now because we can't find much anymore. read more

Well, first off I was struck with curiosity about the architectural layout. Wooden panels, and beams. A real old bookstore feel to it. The floor is by-level, so although there is a lot crammed in there, it isn't an overwhelming clutter. The usual islands of files, and a nice little music listening bench, then at the back, a spiral staircase leading up to a second level where used C.D's are sold. Unfortunately the "world" music section is sadly lacking. The front counter which has listening stations as well, is colourfully tiled. I asked the employee about the history of the shop. It used to house an architectural office ha-ah! What a surprise.... NOT. This is probably one of the larger C.D. and Record shops in Vancouver. Prices are high, but this is Vancouver Canada, baby! read more

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I quite love this place for the selection. but whats makes this place a nightmare is the owner and or most of the snobs that work here. He is arrogant and the few times I've called to ask a question, he speaks to me like I'm asking him for clothing at a record store...when in fact I'm asking about music. not sure what this guy's problem is, but it's a major turn off from me wanting to shop here... read more

They sell new vinyls, used vinyls, and that rare Undertones 78 EP you cant find anywhere on Ebay. Also CDs, posters, concert tickets, hell, they even host concerts! Zulu has everything from local releases and tickets to that chart busting track on their shelves for you to pick up, look at both sides of the record, and then "reluctantly" give a listen on one of their private turntables. They ask you to ask the staff before you do that, but dont bother... their staff are very hard to get a hold of, but friendly enough once you do? It just takes a while, every time, it seems. Then again, theyve done me a big "one" by letting me come in 5 minutes late to pick up a ticket to some must-see show happening that night. They even understood that it was absolutely. must. see. I also like how they have in-store and street-side concerts along with their sales in the summer months. The space is set up pretty decently to accommodate both a plethora of records and the ego of a rock star the likes of Jay Reatard (saw him in August here! R.I.P). For all you naysayers and people preaching its overpriced, this store has a HUGE vinyl trade, not a huge CD trade. If you were looking for CDs I dont know why you would ever want to come here. I dont even know why youre hunting for used CDs, but you would be set up better at pawn shops and along he Granville strip. Just sayin' PS: Check out their jazz and blues selections for some amazing finds... if youre in to that. read more

Not really my thing. No distinct Punk section, let alone any punk records at all aside from some lo-fi grindcore 7 inches and retro hardcore reissues. They were acting super pretentious towards me while listening to Bob Dylan's Blonde on Blonde. I mean, I would get it if they were listening to something interesting/mildly sophisticated. I'll bet they put The Beatles on their top 5's. LOL! The younger gentleman who used to work here(?) was great though, and makes great music himself. Check out Neu Balance on 1080p's bandcamp. All aside, if your favourite artists include: Neil Young, Pink Floyd, The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Steely Dan, or Led Zeppelin, this place is for you. Dave read more

Established over two decades ago, Zulu Records has now reached the level of Vancouver institute. With a large selection of new and used music, including hard-to-find imports, Zulu's pretty much a favourite of any hard-core music fan (peek inside the store to see them going through the tracks with intent concentration). The staff is low-key, mellow, and friendly, and there to help you, whether you're a beginner or an old pro. The comfortable atmosphere may get you in the store, but it's the amazing finds and bargain prices that will keep you coming back. read more

Zulu Records - Music & DVDs Near Me - Vancouver, British Columbia

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I'd give them 4 stars, but the service really does steam my carrots. Might just be me but the staff, (especially one dude who reminds me of a terminally ill Steve Buscemi), seem to have become even worse since indie became a fashion instead of a musical genre. That being said, the idea behind Zulu is solid and I enjoy being in there on busy days when I can take as long as I want to sift through the records with a comforting feeling of anonymity. The vinyl selection can be described as a bowlful of classic rock with a dash of indie; Motown, jazz, rhythm & blues consequently not so hot. Online listings are great to prevent unnecessary trips. Prices for used vinyl are more reasonable than Vinyl on Hastings, but Otis on Davie has many of the popular records for even lower prices. In my opinion, they charge too much for records with marks. Discount vinyl section should definitely be properly catalogued if they want to sell more, and same goes for the used CDs, which are a nightmare to wade through. read more

When I review a record store I have guidelines before making my rating: Selection, Price, Staff. All of these elements need to be strong in order for it to be an excellent record store. Zulu records has a great selection. I'd even go so far as to say amazing, however anyone who knows their prices would think its over priced. You can order a lot of stuff online now a days and you can certainly get it cheaper than they have it at Zulu. I found the lay out and the sub-categorizing of the records were well done, and the staff I encountered were friendly and helpful. I just wish it was cheaper. read more

Welp.... I hate giving bad reviews but my experience over the past couple months with this store makes me want to give them a 1 star. But I'll give them a 2 since I've had some ok (nothing special though) experiences with them in the past. Here's the skinny. Ordered a Record for them a month or so before Christmas as a present for my significant other. Was told it would take a couple weeks. No problem! Way ahead on my X-mas shopping with plenty of breathing room. Takes a while past a couple weeks so I give them a call to see what's up. The shipment is running late but it'll be here the week before xmas. Don't worry they'll "keep me posted." Fast forward a bit.... It's a couple days before xmas and I don't hear from them still so I call over the weekend and there's been some mix up with the record shipment, it's all lost on some train some place (or whatever). Now I'm pretty understanding in general, s#!^ happens. I get it. But you'd think that maybe since the shipment was lost Friday I'd have gotten a call over the weekend on on Monday or SOMETHING since it's probably pretty obvious these records are meant to be Christmas presents. Right? Nope... nothing. So after being assured several times over the past month that this record would be here and that I would be called and updated about it's whereabouts and impending arrival I'm left with one day to shop for a present because the people at Zulu didn't think I might like to know that the record they promised me would be there isn't going to be coming in until after Christmas. Again I'm understanding so I take it all in stride. No big deal, shitty customer service but it's the holidays and things get crazy. Someone probably just skipped calling to let me know by accident. Fast forward again two weeks after Christmas and I haven't heard a word from them. I should mention as well that EVERY TIME I called them they said it would be in within the next week (to arrive on the Friday) and EVERY time it was not there I never got a call. Thank goodness I called each week instead of heading down on Mondays or Friday nights to pick it up or I would have wasted even more of my time with this debacle. ANYWAY.... Three weeks after Christmas I finally get a call that the record is in. Two months after I ordered it, five or six weeks of being told it was coming in on Friday and only once given a reason why it didn't when it was lost over Christmas. I get it give it to my significant other. YAY it's a hit, a great record they forgot they even asked for! We put it on. It is warped so bad the needle looks like its riding a roller-coaster. We try to make due for a listen through but the effect of the speeding up and slowing down makes everything sound like its constantly going out of tune or underwater or something. DAMN! Call Zulu, let them know what's up. Tell them very politely I'm annoyed that it took so long and now that I get it it is un-listenable (I hadn't mentioned my annoyance or bitched at all over this whole time but this was just too much by this point) and the person on the other end clearly does not give a rat's a$$ but they'll order another one. I just need to return this one to them. SO, a couple days later when I have time I head down and drop off the record. In a weird twist of fate the record I had ordered is LITERALLY playing over the speakers in the store now. Probably not LITERALLY the record but songs from it. So that was weird.... Anyway I go to the front and the guy tells me that they can't order another one that the warped one I have is the only one they can get so I'll have to take a refund or the warped record.... SO ANNOYED! But I just take my money and say "that's a shame" and find it odd that this guy can't get me a record when he runs a frikkin' record store.... AAND AGAIN they didn't call me to tell me. I go for breakfast after down the street. Order the record online with no middle man for $10 less than I payed for it at Zulu. Wow guess he was telling the truth there was NOTHING he could do to get me that record after screwing me around for two months straight and almost leaving me with no present for someone on Christmas. Maybe he just meant from his distributor or something, but if after all that ordeal that's as far as he'll go to get me my record? Well there's only one word for that .... WEAK! There's better places with better staff who will actually care about your experience and try to help you get what you want. Zulu sucks and I will not be shopping for any records there if I can avoid it. On second thought I AM giving this place 1 star. The worst part was that nobody gave a crap about the whole thing. Some of the worst customer service I've experienced and they can't deliver the products they claim to specialize in. Crap store. Hope this review saves some other people from wasting two months dealing with them. Whatever you do DON"T ORDER CHRISTMAS GIFTS THROUGH THEM! read more

No question, as a format, CDs have one foot in the proverbial grave. MP3s have basically left 'em in the dirt to die, and as a collector of music I'm ecstatic. Why you ask? Because suckers are selling off their disks like crazy for pennies on the dollar and stores like Zulu who are adapting to keep profitable in a volatile time are flipping 'em for whatever they think they can get for 'em. It's a friggin' collector's bonanza at that place now, and no amount of smirking indie nonsense can wipe the smile off my face when I'm picking up Swans double albums for $10, filling gaps in my Nick Cave discography for $6 and scooping Antony & The Johnsons singles for a buck. I mean let's face it, only social defectives with weird OCD tendencies like me are gonna buy this stuff, so why not price it to move? That's what Zulu is doing, and judging by the anemic amount of new stuff being carried (less than a third of what they were keeping in the "New Release" section even a year ago) they're betting their business on being able to move weight as fast as possible. There's plenty of people who'll whine about their vinyl selection or the attitude of the staff, but frankly I could care less. I don't buy a lot of LPs (unless the edition is really nice or it's a record I love, I don't fetishize the stuff like a lot of music nerds) and my confidence in my own ineffably good taste is such that no amount of disdain from a shop keep will ever bug me. This place has changed into a god damn treasure trove, and the dedicated will be rewarded handsomely if they take the time to look. read more

i still don't know why people like this place. their vinyl selection sucks for the amount of space they have and their staff are typical scenesters that can't party hard enough to be in the band. read more

Not a bad little store, i found some gems in here. It is small, and i really didn't feel the selection of CDs was there. I will check back every now and then to see if any new used stock comes thru. read more

If ever there was an over-rated record shop then this place would take the cake. If you like reissues and CD's the selection is decent and the prices are moderate but any real collectors will be supper bummed out about the paucity of rare titles and the semi-shocking sticker prices (Not as bad as Vinyl on Hastings) on the items they consider to be the collector's items, the real problem with this place is that there just isn;t much quality collectible vinyl at all. i still go from time to time and on the occasion come home with somehting i am excited about but those times are very few and far between. the customer service is mostly quite good, but there are a couple dudes who work there who have a very arrogant swagger about them and they tend to look down on people they don;t consider "hip". This place is all about style over substance and serious record collectors will be disappointed when the reality does not live up to the hype. read more

A good attempt at a record store, but it's more like the type that puts scene over substance. Nothing that you can't get at HMV/Virgin/etc, but it tries to feel like there is more because they don't dilute it so much with mainstream. Their used record selection, though, is tiny. read more

My first visit to Zulu today and so impressed! The service is great and the selection is amazing, I could have spent all day there...and lots of $! We bought 6 albums and we will be going back for more very soon. read more

Great store, rude staff. I wish I could say I enjoyed shopping at Zulu, but it's painful. It's right by my house, but I'd rather go to Dandelion or Red Cat or Scratch. Is it possible for people to be any more condescending or uncooperative? Asking me if the cds I'm trying to trade are bootlegs? Really? They're in plastic wrap, buddy. Maybe take a minute to think before you speak. Thanks to the younger staff member for being cool. The old guy was a jerk. read more

I love the space of this shop. They have tons of used records: yes. Dirty records, not the most exciting albums from artists, covers falling apart: yes. Prices: hit or miss. It seems that some titles are overpriced to add to that "extra rare" impression, but it's actually not always the case when I've found the same thing at Highlife for so much cheaper. Record pricing can be tough, but I found this disappointing all in all :( Some good finds for sure, but sifting through so much can be more fun when there's more good stuff to sift through. I've found the dollar bins useless, and the $3 bins so-so. Wish it had more consistency. No comment on attitude as it's been elaborated on before. Basically, I've had some good experience, and some horrible. read more

Awesome store, they have a massive vinyl selection. It's mainly records with some CDs. Knowledgable staff and quite helpful. Come on by!!

Of course it's a record store with tons of music. Sadly, it's a record store with tons of attitude too, particularly from a guy who's in a local band and name begins with "J." He seems to attend to young girls and has an, "I'm a rock star" attitude but if you've ever heard his music, it's a copy of many bands past. I hear a lot of people who hate shopping here because of the attitude. Pretty much all of the vinyl seems uncleaned and in worse shape than other record shops. There's a lot of junk with good things mixed in. I've also found jazz elsewhere for much cheaper, and their idea of "import" or anything special isn't always worth the cost the charge. The plus side is the environment besides the staff is cool because it's so big, has pinball, places to sit and is an experience unlike other shops. All in all, records are "iffy" quality and I'd prefer record shop elsewhere in town whose staff are always cool and have enough musical maturity to not be higher than thou about yours. read more

Coolest record store in the ciry ! Good selection and they often have very rare used records at very decent prices!

I've only been there few and far between to be honest, mostly to indulge a significant other on a Vinyl hunting expedition. The selection is nothing steller, there are a few behind the counter selections that are cool, rare finds that I have been looking for some time now. Most of what is behind the counter is overpriced by 20% for the rare stuff. I only buy from there for the sometimes rare stuff 'cause it's for a gift and can't wait to have it shipped from ebay. As for the general selection = meh. The staff are hipsters and even though I try and be my bubbly self, 'cause I don't suit the physical fashion they rarely bother with me. It's just not me, I've seen them do this to other staff in front of me. It's more of a scene than a respectable safe musical retail outlet that makes you feel comfortable and welcome. It's in a good retail neighbourhood for other novelty shops, therefore, I go to the store to pass time while checking out other stores on the blocks, however, I don't go out of my way to check it out. read more

I came into town to see some bands and visit some record stores. This place exceeded my expectations with its huge 7" collection! Not only was it huge, they had chairs set up so you can look at them all at your leisure. The prices were average with a few great finds at a cut rate. read more

As someone who owns a record player, I am quite enamored by Zulu Records. If I get a hankering for something in particular, say an older recording of Leonard Cohen or Nina Simone singing Billie Holiday, it's pretty likely that Zulu will have it. They carry a pretty wide range of used and new vinyl including some hard to find imports, and, though I haven't checked it out much, the CD section is pretty sizable, too. Come here if you're not looking for mainstream, and if you don't mind flipping through lots of records before stumbling across the very thing you were hoping you'd find. read more