My partner and I had the most unforgettable experience. We are moderate climbers but had only a little experience outdoors. Tiowa was incredible; so patient and knowledgeable. He may have been the best guide we've ever had. Lead us on some fun easy routes and pushed us just enough to get into an intermediate. Highly recommend. Great for all skill levels and a unique way to experience Joshua Tree. read more

I had the most amazing experience through the Joshua Tree Climbing School. If it weren't for my friend Lea, who introduced me to indoor climbing, I probably would have never tried to enhance my skills through an Intermediate class up in J.T. This would be my second time climbing outdoors, my first time in Joshua Tree, and one of the best things that I've ever done. Steve was our instructor and he was a no B.S. kind of dude. He was extremely knowledgeable and trustworthy, and pushed our group to go above and beyond their capabilities--not to instill fear but more to show us that we're so much more capable of what we think we can do. Day 1 started with Steve teaching us several knots that we would need to know to create slings, extend ropes, and tie in and set anchors. Then he showed us all of the anchor devices and techniques. Once we were schooled on the tools we needed to set anchors, he set us free to set up some anchors around the boulders around us. He always checked our work and critiqued what we did right, wrong and how we could have improved it. After about a half day of anchor lectures and practice settings, he set up some top ropes for us to climb for the rest of the afternoon. I'm a 5.9 climber in the gym, and he set up some 5.7 cracks that I found really difficult and challenging, but a lot of fun. On Day 2 we drove to another part of the park. This was the real test. Not only did we have to scramble up the side of a mountain with gear, but we also had to partner up and set up anchors, and then repel off of them. Again, he always checked our work and safety was always a priority. I never felt jeopardized, but always challenged. Once we repelled off of our first anchor sets, he let us top rope off of them. The second part of Day 2 got even more interesting when he led us back to the top of our first anchors, showed us how to tear them down, and then led us to even higher ground "free soloing" it up the mountain (i.e., scrambling without rope) to set up another set of anchors. I have to admit that I was scurrred, but I put all of my faith and trust in Steve and my group. Steve would remind us that if there was something we felt uncomfortable with to let him know so he could rope us in or spot us from behind. Our group was cohesive--we looked out for each other, checked each other for safety and never left anyone behind. It was pretty gnarly (the best descriptive word for this) to sitting at the top of a mountain, setting up anchors, looking over the edge for accuracy and then having complete faith in your work by repelling off of it and then top roping it over and over. I really had no idea what I was in for when Lea invited me to go with her on this weekend excursion, but it was worth every penny. Not only did I improve my climbing skills, but I also walked away with some pretty cool mountaineering survivor skills, a new set of friends, and last but not least, bruised and scraped knees and knuckles. In short, Steve RAWKS!!!! read more

Joshua Tree Rock Climbing School - Climbing Near Me - Joshua Tree, California

Worth every penny! I originally signed up for a beginner group class for my 9 year old and myself. Mark emailed me back and recommended that a two hour private guide would be best suited for us. Mark's recommendation couldn't have been more perfect for our needs. I scoped out the meeting area the day before and was nervous that I wouldn't be able to find my guide. Mark was quick to respond to my email and reassure me that at 8am it wouldn't be so crowded and that it would be easy to find my guide. He was right. We did not encounter a long line entering the park around 7:15 am and arrived at the meeting location around 7:40am. Our guide Steve was waiting there for us and was easy to find. He let us try on several different sized shoes and fitted us for helmets and harnesses. Steve was absolutely amazing. He really put my daughter and I at ease and coached us along every step of the way. His knowledge, experience, patience, and ability to instill trust and confidence was everything you would hope for when relying upon someone to keep you and your child safe. My daughter and I both had ample time to each climb several times in two different areas. We were challenged and able to overcome our fears. We both had so much fun and can't wait to go again! My daughter now wants to become a professional rock climber when she is older. :) I highly recommend Joshua Tree Rock Climbing School! It is well worth the expense and your guide is definitely worth a nice tip! read more

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This was my first time climbing outdoors and it was 100 degrees outside but David, my guide, knows the area very well and took us to a shady spot where it was comfortable to climb. I learned tons and felt victorious after our half day of climbing and it was in large part due to the teaching style of David, who I found to be informative and motivational. Thank you Joshua Tree Rock Climbing School and David! read more

Joshua Tree Rock Climbing School - First time outside but due to the support I got I was able to climb pretty high on level 5.8. - Climbing Near Me - Joshua Tree, California

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Such a shame, but the owner/operator Mark deserves negative stars for his breathtakingly awful attitude towards customers. We did a one-day intermediate course and our guide, Don Reid, an expert climber with 30+ years of experience and a couple of books under his belt, was amazing. We wanted to come back for a 2-day and I asked Mark if he'd hold the class for us (the school has a 2-person minimum for classes and he had no one else booked for the weekend coming up in just 4 days). Rather than even consider working something out, he preferred to give me a lecture on business and then hung up on me. Amazing! I'm tenacious, OK, but I was trying to talk him into taking our money, go figure! I can't see how turning down $500 is good for business, nor how antagonizing potential customers leads to profit, but there you go. We would have probably signed up for private guiding if he had not been so astonishingly unpleasant and obviously uninterested in having us come back. I didn't know you could wear the cranky pants with your climbing gear. Our guide recommended Vertical Adventures as an alternate. There are 3 or 4 firms and the prices and class offerings are identical. Definitely go to Joshua Tree for an amazing experience climbing outdoors, but I'd steer towards another company. read more

I would highly recommend this outfit for rock climbing esp if you have Steve. Not only did I find him amazing but I also have seen his name pop up on other sites that review this sort of thing. I did a one-day class and agree whole-heartedly with Liza. I didn't know what to expect and he blew away any expectation or preconceived thoughts I might have had. More importantly, I left class thinking that I could go rock climbing on my own with lots of confidence. That is really what I was after- getting the basics so I could go on my own. I am not too interested in Day 2 as it is quite unlikely I will be anchoring but it's good to know in the event I ever had to do it. Again, I did not attend Day 2. If you're looking for a one-day class, I recommend this company and esp if you could get Steve. read more

This review is long overdue. My friend and I decided to try a weekend of rock climbing in Joshua Tree in February. She had gone in high school a few times and I had never been. I'm afraid of heights and not quite sure what possessed me to agree trying rock climbing, but I am so glad I did. Sterling was our instructor and he was incredible. I cannot say enough good things about him. He was infinitely patient and always encouraging. He instructs in a way that makes you feel secure in whatever the activity is but he doesn't push you if you want to stop. We learned some really good basics and by the end of the weekend, I could not believe what we accomplished. Rock climbing was one of the coolest things I've done and having an awesome instructor made it even better. We will definitely come back and request Sterling! read more

Our guide Mark Bowling, was amazing. He asked us specifically what techniques and skills we knew and which ones we wanted to learn to be competent lead climbers during our short stay at Joshua Tree State Park. Mark was precise, and was able to our questions even before we asked them. I hate it when people use the term "veritable fountain of information," but he was the epitome of the saying. Not only was Mark a great instructor but he also was a great person who made the whole experience fun and interesting. I trusted with my life (literally) completely and wish I could have his instruction the entire week I was there. I know there are at least 2 other other guiding/instruction companies but I will never try them. I am completely happy with the money I spent and I highly recommend Joshua Tree Climbing School. read more

I can only recommend Joshua Tree Rock Climbing school! After the Intermediate Rock Weekend with Mark Bowling, I am definitely a better climber; not only because I was able to climb many technically different routes but also because of the knowledge I gained (anchoring,, climbing techniques, proper choice of equipment and its use/ application and about safety). Mark is an extremely experienced climber who leaves nothing to chances. He quickly gained the trust of the group. I felt absolutely safe to try new moves and methods and feel confident to use them in the future. Mark is understanding and empathic which enabled him to help the attendees to overcome fears and struggles. If you are new to outdoor climbing, you could not possibly find a better adviser. I will be back to work with Mark on my leading skills! read more

I have climbed with Joshua tree climbing for the past 3 years. The goal was to learn and be safe. I request Steve every time, the reason is because of his integrity and professionalism. Steve gives a no nonsense learning experience. If just coming out to experience rock climb for the first time or to get a refresher for experienced climb your fist and only call should be to Joshua tree climbing. Any of the guides will take care of you and give you the best experience for your level of climb you request. read more

Joshua Tree Rock Climbing School - Climbing Near Me - Joshua Tree, California

An excellent experience I was part of a group of 4 that signed up last minute in a busy season for the beginner 1 rock climbing class/ experience. First of all let me say how much I appreciate JTCS accommodating us last minute. Thank you so much Mark! I'll preface this review by saying that the four members of our group had either very little climbing experience, or were complete novices. We arrived at the meeting spot at 8am (easy to find as long as you follow the instructions on the website) and met Mark and Steve. After about 15 minutes of introductions and gear fitting, we began the class. Steve was our instructor. He was very professional and friendly as well as humble. He was patient and explained the concepts and instructions very well. Whenever we had a question or concern he made sure that he explained and that we understood before moving on. Something that i really appreciate in an instructor. Most of the morning was spent learning the basic systems and commands for belaying a top-roped climber. This was really basic stuff and for beginners such as ourselves it was very valuable. Steve also covered basic concepts about moving across and up the rock face. I learned some new stuff about smear technique as well as how to navigate a route and look for the "path of least resistance". As I have mainly a gym climbing back ground up to this point, both concepts were very useful. The afternoon was spent climbing and practicing belays. Steve was again, an excellent instructor. He was attentive to the climber and belayer and provided useful instructing as the climber struggled to ascend the route. Interestingly, one thing I noticed was that Steve was not a cheerleader. He seemed to provide only pertinent information to the climber and then let the climber work through the problem. All in all I have no negatives to note regarding our experience this weekend with Steve and the Joshua Tree Climbing School. If you're a beginner climber and looking to learn more, these guys are top notch and I would highly recommend them. If I return to Joshua Tree for more climbing instruction JTCS will be my first choice. read more

This is my first review ever after some 10+ years of using yelp. I've never felt compelled to leave one until now. If I could give the JT Rock Climbing school more stars, I would. The experience I had learning to climb REAL rock in the desert was unparalleled to any lesson I've taken before. Steve was my guide and I can't say enough about how knowledgeable and skilled he was as a climber, a guide, and a person. For someone who's never climbed outside before, it was of utmost importance that I feel comfortable and safe while also being able to enjoy the experience. Steve provided for all of it and more with his extended lesson on anchoring and repelling. If you are a novice climber, climbing 5.11a max in a gym, and you are looking to get some exposure to more than just gym walls, this is the best course for you. I was a bit late trying to find the right spot to meet and Steve was there when I pulled up a half hour behind schedule. Our lesson was one-on-one and he tailored the day to my climbing and comfort level. I learned more than I expected and got enough climbs in that I walked away with new information AND feeling a bit sore. It's been over a month since I took the basic rock 2 class. Not a day has passed that I don't think about how great a time I had and when can I get back out there to learn and climb! If there is something you want to work on, Steve will work with you. And you'll enjoy his company and all his great stories, he has many! You will never regret this experience or the money you paid. I'll be back for another lesson on setting gear soon and I CANNOT wait. read more

Joshua Tree Rock Climbing is the best way to spend a day in the National Park. My 16 year old son took Basic 1 and was amazed at what he was able to accomplish. It was a great confidence builder. Long story, I would be repeating all of the 5 star rating's comments. Short story, I agree with all the 5 star reviews. Obviously talented climbers and more importantly highly skilled, compassionate, and professional teachers. read more

My husband and I contacted Joshua Tree Rock Climbing School for a half day instruction to get exposed to climbing in Joshua Tree. We're fairly new to climbing and weren't comfortable going out on our own. Dave was our instructor and in 4 hours taught us a lot about movement technique and climbing in Joshua Tree. After this we decided to take the intermediate rock climbing class and requested Dave as our instructor since we already knew him and liked his approach. Luckily Dave was available! The intermediate rock climbing (top roping) class was two days long and it was amazing. We learned about passive anchor systems with cams and nuts, setting up and transitioning to a rappel, and climbing technique and movement (heels down, leg straight), and a lot more by asking questions and listening to Dave's stories and advice (about gear, different climbing and anchor scenarios, etc...). We drilled making anchors and transitioning to rappel as well as climbing movement all weekend long. By the end of the class our biggest challenge was to mock lead, set up an anchor, set-up and transition to rappel, and rappel down on the anchor you built. It was hard, but with Dave's instruction and coaching I was able to confidently accomplish this. Dave is unparalleled in his expert level knowledge of climbing - his vast experience (seriously, he's done everything - nearly 40 years of experience) and his approach to teaching will take you from feeling "just OK" to extremely confident out on the rock. Dave is incredibly patient and explains things in a very easy to understand manner. Climbing can often times be overwhelming, especially at the beginning; there is a lot to learn to climb safely and confidently. Dave's approach to teaching and climbing is straight forward and will make you a much stronger, more confident, and safer climber. He's also a really awesome guy with some great stories to tell. We are looking forward to continuing our training with Joshua Tree Rock Climbing School as our skills progress and hopefully working with Dave again in the future. read more

Me and my two friends are going to climb Mt Rainier next mouth and we used these guys to give us the basic skills needed for mountaineering safety and rescue. We had Scott Cole as our instructor and he was awesome. Scott knows his stuff and he's full of useful information. Me and my buddies agreed that we couldn't have found a better instructor. Thank you Scott and we'll practice all you taught us rigorously . Oh, Joshua Tree's freak'n awesome! read more

We were a large group of 15 ages 7 on up. Mark and his two other guides were amazing! We all climbed and had a great time. The guides were positive, encouraging, extremely knowledgable and fun. We all highly recommend Mark and his guides. read more

Such a fun family outing. Thanks JT Rock Climbing School.

Joshua Tree Rock Climbing School offers by far the best guiding you'll find. You may like myself, have the honor of being instructed by Mark Bowling (owner/guide) himself, a well reknowned climber holding records including most routes in 24 hours (over 200 ranging to 5.11 free soloing!) He obviously has not only a passion for climbing and instructing, but also dedication towards safety. I have never felt so completely confident in someone's abilities and genuine concern for both my health and enjoyment. How anyone would have anything but praise to offer after taking lessons from Mark or his capable guides is beyond me. I guess some people will always find something to complain about, but trust me when I say you are definitely in good hands here. The prices are generally affordable, and the climbing experience is one you won't forget in the beautiful Joshua Tree National Park. read more

You will not regret going to this school, it was one of the best weekends I've ever had!

Gotta agree with the other reviewers here who gave Steve Gerberding glowing reviews. He had the skills, made sure everyone got personal instruction, and most importantly made the class fun. He was full of passion for the sport of rock climbing and had a sincere interest in teaching others. Steve is such an easygoing and humble guy you would never guess his climbing resume includes multiple first ascents up El Capitan and spires in Patagonia. I now feel confident enough to join friends on climbs and climb safely. read more

My son and I had a great day learning the basics with Don Reid. It seems like the whole team at Joshua Tree Rock Climbing has the same high level of professionalism along with terrific climbing resumes. Two weeks later I'm still thinking about that magical day in the desert with a gifted instructor who is both a wise and gentle soul. read more

My boyfriend and I just did a weekend Intermediate Rock Climbing Class with Steve and it was amazing! Steve is so knowledgeable about climbing that although we've had previous classes it was nothing compared to the experience and Knowledge that Steve had. The climbs were exciting and fun and made me want to really make this a hobby. I would definitely recommend Joshua Climbing School to anyone that wants to learn the basics or even do a guided climb that is more on the difficult side. These instructors are LEGIT! read more

I came to Joshua tree this past weekend camping with several friends. A girlfriend of mine and I decided to try our hand at outdoor rock climbing. We both had very limited experience, with only a few trips to indoor rock climbing gyms. I wasn't sure what to expect but I was extremely pleased. We booked our class really late - but the school was able to accommodate us without hesitation. We were lucky enough to have Steve as our guide who was a wonderful guide and an awesome instructor. He really pushed us, there were times when we wanted to give up and Steve was so encouraging and comforting that we didn't give up, and made it to the top of the rope each time! Steve was so helpful, knowledgeable and kind - and I trusted him full heartedly. We had wonderful time, and I hope to come back for day two very soon! read more

I signed up for a two day basic rock climbing class with my Dad. The first morning we met our guide Mark, who owns the school. He was extremely friendly and I could see the natural passion to teach us. The first morning alone we were already completing climbs that we'd looked at earlier and thought, "it would be cool if we could do that eventually". Mark's thorough-and-direct-yet-gentle-and-encouraging teaching style had us excited, confident and feeling safe to climb more. And now that I'm back home I want to go back to J-Tree! In the near future we are planning to use Mark as a guide again so we can safely learn to build our own anchors to top rope from. Which means more climbing time!! read more

So I have been using Yelp for a while, but this is my first review. Maybe that is an indication of how much fun I had today. My gf and I hired Mark as our private climbing guide for the day. He put together a day of great climbing and lead climbing training. It was perfect. Challenging and fun and we learned a ton. I will definitely go back and ask for his help again. read more

My family and I had a great experience with Mark at Joshua Tree Rock Climbing School. He was very good with our 8 and 10 year olds. Showing us the ropes with a very calm and confident demeanor. Professional throughout our half day lesson, Mark will get you up a 100ft rock face by the end of a lesson. I cannot say enough good things about Mark and his school. They are top notch! read more

My wife and I did a private guided tour with Mark and had an informative, exhilarating and memorable experience. Mark is deeply knowledgeable, kind, patient and yet motivates one to do things you wouldn't think possible. It you are in Joshua Tree, do yourself a favor and spend some time with Mark. Can't recommend enough! read more

Steve was our instructor and he was INCREDIBLE!!! This was the first time experience with rock climbing and first time visit to Joshua Tree for my entire family. Parents 50ish and kids 20ish. We signed up for a full day. Steve was our instructor, he was informative, stressed the importance of safety and walked us through all the steps before we climbed. He walked/talked us through several climbs that were different levels of challenge. Everyone was able to participate and the stronger climbers were were able to stay challenged through out the day. Steve has the ability to share his 42 years of experience in a very easy to understand way and gave this group of climbers the experience of a lifetime. The experience gave us a whole new level of respect for this sport. There is the thrill, but also the respect of safety for your fellow climber. We loved Joshua Tree and will definitely return. If you are thinking of rock climbing, DO IT!!!!! Definitely recommend Joshua Tree Rock Climbing School and Steve, the best instructor we could have asked for. THANK YOU! read more

We had a blast! My son and I went rock climbing with Mark and had an amazing time. He quickly made me feel at ease since it was my first outdoor climbing experience. My son had done a great deal of indoor rock climbing and really wanted to do the real thing. I can't tell you how much knowledge my son and I came home with. Mark is a great teacher and made this trip wonderful. Thanks Mark! read more

Had a terrific half day session with Mark over the holidays. Mark is extremely knowledgable and meticulous. He knows a ton about the routes in the park and scoped out a nice sunny spot on a chilly day. He provided just the right level of coaching and exactly the right advice at the right time so we could see a lot if improvement in our technique and confidence in just a few short hours. He was super laid back and allowed us to go at our own pace without rushing. Great guy to be around. We'll definitely be hiring him again next time we visit the park. read more

Joshua Tree Rock Climbing School - Climbing with Mark on a chilly day - Climbing Near Me - Joshua Tree, California

Don Reid is the man. I took my girlfriend out there for the Basic Rock Climbing 1 school. We showed up at 8am and Don was already there and completely set up. We started out slow with 3 other rookie climbers but by the end of the day we were tackling 80 ft. climbs. Don is smart, patient, kind, funny, and seriously awesome. For someone who has never really done outdoor climbing I can say that with Don as the instructor I was filled with enormous confidence with every climb we did. I would highly recommend Joshua Tree Rock Climbing school for anyone interested in learning how or anyone who just enjoys being out in the desert doing awesome things with great people. I can't wait to go back. read more

I had a private half day rock climbing lesson with Dave G. and it was amazing. This school is the real deal! They really want to teach you how to climb. My instructor Dave G., was extremely experienced and skilled and a very knowledgable and patient teacher. He had me climbing in the first hour. I felt i was in very capable and safe hands. The overall experience was over the top. I will be going back. If your looking for the best school in Joshua Tree this one is IT!!!! Can't wait to go back and learn more.... read more

We went with two families (10 people) for a rock climbing class with Mark. Kid ages 5-14. We had a terrific time scrambling around the rocks and learning about rock climbing. Mark is very passionate about what he does. He gave great explanation on how to climb at the very basic level for us. Highly recommend this activity and this school. We did our climb at Indian Cove and it was significantly less crowded than the other sites. Joshua tree is quite beautiful and just being in the wilderness was a treat in itself. Mark provided all the equipment for us and it was an amazing introductory experience for all of us. read more

I couldn't have asked for a better rock climbing experience. Mark was an incredibly knowledgeable and amicable guide who made sure everyone felt comfortable on the rock while also maintaining a fun and enjoyable atmosphere. I would highly recommend him to anyone regardless of their prior climbing experience. read more

What an amazing day! I wish there were more than five stars. I booked a private 4 hour session since my husband and I were climbing with my mother who is 60 and our two young children (both under 9) . I was obviously apprehensive since we were all first timers, but our guide Sterling was better than I could have even expected. He was so focused on safety which put my husband and I at ease from the outset. He made the day perfect - encouraging but not pushy, instructive and supportive. What more could you want?! Our kids had an absolute blast and so did we. I rarely write reviews, but this was a great day and totally worth the money. If you are on the fence, do it. You won't regret it! read more

HIGHLY RECOMMEND! We had a group of seven. 3 adults and 4 teenagers. All beginners except for one member in our group. Can't say enough great things about Joshua Tree Rock Climbing School. Professional from the start. Dave and Sterling were our guides for a half day clinic. They were patient, knowledgeable, and super friendly. We couldn't have asked for a better experience. read more

Steve was our guide, and I can't imagine having a better experience out there than we did. The weather was pretty nasty in the morning and he made adjustments about what we were going to do so we'd be most comfortable. He gave us all the same basic info to begin with, but quickly tailored his advice to each individual based on what each of us needed. We only had four people (I understand they top off the class we took at 6, which is awesome) so we had a lot of personalized attention. When up on the rock, he made "suggestions" about where to go when we seemed stuck, but let us figure it out on our own when it was clear that was what we wanted to do. I think it was careful listening and attention (and a lifetime of experience) that offered him the insight to make the right comment to each of us when we needed it. He made a joke about wanting to learn from the old guy who's done it all and is still alive, and I have to say, it did make a difference knowing that he had been through many years of scenarios and ways of doing things in order to be able to offer us the best of it all. The only "irk" I had was at one point when I was up on the rock, there was unrelated conversation happening below that made me wonder if they (in particular my belayer) were paying attention to me, but every time I looked down, all eyes were on me so I may be nitpicking. It was a very special day, and Steve was everything we could have hoped for to make it such a positive experience. I know a whole lot more than I did going in, felt very safe, and had a wonderful time. I feel fortunate to have gone through it with this school and particularly this guide. read more

Just got back from the 2 day intermediate class. I didn't really know what to expect and was worried that I'd be in over my head since I've only climbed at the gym and hadn't done that in a few years. But I really wanted to learn how to be climb outdoors and start learning how to be self sufficient so I could go out on my own or at least have more knowledge so I can trust the folks I go out with. This class was amazing for that. I learned so much about anchors and I left feeling good about how to set up anchors sine we had several opportunities to set up anchors low to the ground and then actually set up top anchors and then climbed from them (yay!). Even though I wasn't graceful since I was super rusty, I had tons of fun on the climbs we did. Don was a great instructor. He has so much knowledge and a great demeanor--couldn't have asked for someone better to learn from. read more

We were fortunate to have Mark as our guide for our very first rock climbing experience. Since we were doing this climb as a 25th anniversary present to ourselves at age 69, we were hoping for an experienced and patient guide with an encouraging and professional style. We could not have asked for or anticipated a better half-day experience than we had. Within 90 minutes, Mark gave us each the confidence and skills to allow us to each climb to the very top of an 80 foot rock face that neither of us at first thought it would be possible for us to do. He knew exactly the instruction and skills we needed to get started and also emphasized the safety and care required - both of which we needed in order to have the confidence in our very new skills. That Mark could bring his expert skills and knowledge down to a level that was effective for rank beginners and train us in such a short period of time is a testament to his exceptional teaching skills. He guided us each step of the way, but also allowed us to make our own choices (and mistakes) as we progressed to our third climb. My wife has a long standing fear of heights, but to my amazement Mark gave her the confidence and practice to climb all the way to the top on her first try. We both highly recommend Mark for both novices and more skilled climbers. He knows Joshua Tree climbs like the back of his hand and has an incredible catalog of detailed knowledge he's eager and able to share. A fantastic encouraging experience! read more

Extremely disappointed in Joshua Tree Rock Climbing School, the customer service is deplorable. I would love to rate them on the actual teaching and guide tours but unfortunately we didn't even get that far. This is not a rating on safety and or teaching. read more