HUGE MONEY + INTEGRITY ISSUES!! I sought help from Dr. Chao because my dentist referred me to get a gum graft to solve tooth inflammation and pus. Dr. Chao said he could help me and that I was a candidate for the Pinhole treatment. I felt relieved and hopeful for my healing. Dr. Chao presented me an $16K treatment plan to get the Pinhole surgery which included a mandatory deep clean, Perio Protect trays, and occlusion device. He gave me a 50% discount and required that I pay everything upfront. It seemed like an odd way to do business, but he was confident in his ability to help me. He ordered the Perio Protect trays and occlusion device for the day of my deep clean. But unfortunately nothing went any further. His office did one deep clean and then Dr. Chao refused to move forward with the surgery. Nothing changed from our first session, so I have literally no idea why he suddenly couldn't treat me when he said that he could. I called multiple times to try and get clarity. When I did, he spent about 5 mins on the phone with me and kept referring me to see other specialists. I tried seeing these specialists (some who cleared me for the surgery), and Chao just kept sending me out to more. I had to hound down his office for over a month to try and get the right referral. He even sent me out to get a biopsy for cancer (I definitely don't have mouth cancer). He clearly no longer knew what was going on. Finally, I got fed up waiting and saw two periodontists. They both told me I my tooth needs to be surgically cleaned by a periodontist (a gum specialist who is licensed to perform surgery). Dr. Chao is not a periodontist. He's a general dentist. Which means he has severe limitations in treating anything beyond the basics. When I went back to Dr. Chao with the information from the periodontists, he offered me $2,700 for the surgery he never performed (a small fraction of my original $8K+ investment). I had to harass them for over a month to even get that back, and then they only sent $2,400! I came to find out later that some of his fees (even with the 50% "discount") were more than DOUBLE the industry standard. * $2,400 for a deep clean (industry standard = $1,200) * $1,750 for Perio Protect trays (with the 50% "discount") Industry standard = $650. * $350 for a bacteria test. The same test is $130 online. Or you can get the same exact results for $90 online with SimplyPerio Saliva Test (i.e. https://www.osseodent.com/product/simplyperio-saliva-test/). * $900 per tooth for the Pinhole. I was quoted $625 per tooth by a microsurgery periodontist. * $1,800 for occlusion device (I was quoted $1,200 by another dentist) Paying too much sucks, but the worst part was that Dr. Chao wasn't even able to help me and I'm fighting to get my money back. No medical practitioner should ever treat people who are seeking healing this way. The way he runs his business is everything that is wrong with the business or private medicine in this country. I HIGHLY SUGGEST THINKING TWICE BEFORE MIXING YOUR MONEY UP WITH DR. CHAO. After many months of searching, I ended up getting Regenerative Periodontal Endoscopy treatment with Judy Carroll at Periopeak.com in WA - a deep non-surgical treatment to microscopically remove tooth debris. She also used Emdogain to help regrow bone naturally. After 7 months of struggling for help (which Dr. Chao couldn't do), this woman cleared my infection in one treatment.For those of us who don't want traditional gum grafting, I recommend finding a periodontist who does microsurgery (if you're in LA, Dr. Ricardo Raschkovsky offers this. Or ask Google/ChatGPT for someone in your area). It's less invasive than traditional gum grafting and then you're working with a real periodontist on deeper issues. Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't work with anyone who isn't using a microscope. There is a lot going on that can't be seen with basic magnification that most dentists use (including Dr. Chao's office). Gum recession is often a result of bone loss, which is often a result of occlusion. All of that needs to be worked on, not just lifting the gums up. As an added bonus - Dr. Chao makes patients sign a document stating they will not leave any online reviews - which is ILLEGAL in the state of California. Another red flag. I will say that the ladies in his office are very kind and warm. Joy, Meredith, Gia, Cynthia, and others were very caring to me. I give them my thanks. It's not their fault that Dr. Chao struggles with greed and runs a bad, unethical business. Dr. Chao - I am working to find it in my heart to forgive you for whatever happened in this life to create this greed in your spirit. I can only imagine what thta has really cost you in this life. And I say this - it's never too late to turn it around and let the real beauty of your heart be what guides you. read more

John Chao, DDS - General Dentistry Near Me - Alhambra, California

I have been a patient of Dr. Chao for over 10 years. I had the pinhole surgery over 6 yrs ago and am very pleased with the results. The staff is awesome! very professional, friendly, and caring. I highly recommend Dr. Chao for his professionalism and a outstanding dental work! Marisela L. read more

I don't come to this site for medical advice - G oo gle review is much more accurate. Having said that - I was looking for the information to give to my friend and happened to see the reviews so decided to chime in. Now, I have been a patient here for number of years, I have had pinhole procedure, dental implant, jaw issues - you name it I had it. Dental implant I had it with other doctors too so I can compare for sure. Yes, I am one of those lucky one who has all sort of conditions with my gum and teeth, even after all the cleaning, and careful planning of my oral care - I just have to live with it. Before I end up with Dr.Chao, I had no idea I could have great smile because I was always hesitant to smile - now I have been happy with my smiles and I am confident with my smiles and that is worth more than anything. As for the pinhole, I have gum issues and will continue to have gum issues as I age. Pinhole is a procedure that can help the issues but is not a cure of fundamental underlying causes. The area I had pinhole more than 5 years ago still looks amazing - but new issues will pop up at another area and that is part of the condition of my oral health. Now most of the 1 star is about the price - this is where I don't understand...lots of people who will not even blink on their $300 eyelash extension that they have to go every so often meaning you are spending roughly about 5K/annual, but will have major issue of 10K quoted dental procedure for something that will last much longer and good for your health. SMH.... So for those of you who are reading yelp review for a doctor, please take it with a grain of salt and think about why the negative is really coming from. Is the review about how the doctor or the office is bad, or is it the price is something they rather not pay as they have other things that is more important so they have to comment how this doctor is greedy etc... oh and also keep in mind seems like the algorithm favors to showcase negative vs positive review. Not all reviews are showcased equally. my 2cents. read more

To the point. Had pinhole surgery for around 10000. Was told by Dr and staff the results were amazing. 5 years later back to where I started. Results don't last. read more

Decided to visit dentist after viewing YouTube and radio advertisement, For $100 consultation fee and an hour long wait, l didn't even get a 5 minute conversation, I was told that l would have to pay $450 of 3D imaging for radiology. He did not even comment on the X-ray reports l brought in, Because of my lack of insurance, he quoted me $8-20000 for the operation. Medical professionals should have patience and Dr Chao gave me none, I am extremely disappointed by this dentist,. Highly Unrecommended, read more

Saw Dr Chao on You Tube and watched his famous "pin hole" procedure for receding gums so thought I'd come in for a consultation. The office staff was very pleasant. The charge is $100 for consult which was fine but I declined the X-rays or 4 D imaging. I've not been to dentist in a while for lack of insurance which I now have but this Dr REALLY scared me unnecessarily. Dr Chao told me I had moderate to severe gum disease, that he'd have to pull out most of my teeth (WHAT!!! If you saw my teeth you'd be shocked he said that) and never offered any hope like he talks about on his videos. (Where people have totally, horrible teeth!) He then proceeded to state that the bacteria in my mouth "could" cause all kinds of scary health issues. Thanks a lot! Most importantly he never mentioned what he COULD do to start reversing the gum disease or how he'd help me treat that. I've read enough on this topic to know it's possible. I've seen severe gum and teeth healed via cleaning and support on many of his own videos and elsewhere. So why the scare tactics? I had also originally been told that they could do a cleaning for me even though I have a loose bottom left molar. No mention or recommendation from Dr regarding starting with a good cleaning to get my mouth back to better health. Why not if they were ready to clean my teeth before I declined? And when I mentioned how we might correct the loose left molar he said "oh I don't know if I could do that I'm better at fixing loose front teeth " and he smiled. What???? I was told repeatedly by staff that without 4D imaging at $450 to start it was not possible to give me a clear picture of my needs yet this Dr. used scare tactics with me claiming that it would cost me $8000-$20000 to save my mouth just by what he saw from a photo. Unbelievable!! Needless to say, I left there a bit shaken up and highly disappointed. No dentist should try to use scare tactics to force a potential client to spend their own money out of pocket and out of network with no other mention of supporting them except tooth extraction!! I've read about how to improve gums and bone loss and know that there is always an alternative! Will never recommend this Dr to anyone!!! read more

BEWARE! I have been meaning to write this review for some time but I always like to give people the benefit of the doubt and cool down before I say something nasty that I might regret later. Well, it's been almost a year since I went to this dentist and I still want to sue him. I went to Chao on the recommendation of a friend. I had just moved here, didn't know anyone and my tooth was cracked to the nerve - a freak occurrence from something I bit into, not related to any issue with the health of my teeth. On the plus side, he took me right away, but within an hour or getting there, he had me in a panic about the state of my tooth, emphasized to me there was no time to get a second opinion and boasted that he was the only dentist that could "save my tooth." I should have gotten the second opinion and popped a lot of Tylenol in the process to ward off the pain. I was charged $10,000 on the spot for two root canals, two root fillings, a porcelain cap, and some gum surgery. I don't know the first thing about dental pricing That sounded high to me, but I had no reliable way to confirm. I became suspicious of Dr. Chao's practices when, upon finishing the procedure, he pasted four white fake teeth over my front teeth, stuck a mirror in my face and told me how much better I would look with crowns on my teeth! I had no idea he was doing this, I still had my mouth pried open from the final work, and I was still NUMB from the Novocaine! Even more insulting, every single dentist I have been to in my life has commented on how perfect and white my teeth are! Why would anyone suggest filing down perfectly healthy teeth and putting caps on them? Months later, I became friends with another dentist who was extremely suspicious of Dr. Chao's pricing and asked if she could examine the dental records and my tooth. It was her conclusion that not only had I been extraordinarily overcharged, but that it was questionable that he had even performed all the work I was charged for. She did not see any evidence of the "surgery", for example. She encouraged my to file a complaint against him with the dental board for his pricing and scare tactics, and taking advantage of a patient in severe pain. I looked into filing a complaint, but the time it would take to do that would actually cost me more money (I'm a lawyer and have an extraordinarily hectic schedule) and more emotional pain. But thank goodness for Yelp - if I can save someone from the agony I went through, that's good enough for me. read more

I've been a patient at this office for the past six years, I love this place. The doctor is superb and the staff are amazing. I'm not a fan of dental work, most of us aren't, but this place makes the experience so much better. I feel informed, I'm given every tool to maintain my dental hygiene at home, including an electric toothbrush and a water pick. I tried several offices before coming here and I'm so happy I found this place. I'm very disappointed some ratings are based on pricing alone. There is truth to paying for what you get. This place provides excellent services, including the pin hole procedure that Dr. Chao invented. Finally, for those whose results aren't what was desired, I question whether they may be responsible for some of their undesired results. I get so much attention and follow up appointments, that it's hard to understand why a patient that followed the post treatment instructions would inevitably end up with bad results. read more

I can't quite figure out why the reviews are so bad. They all seem related to pricing, which I can not speak to in my review, but it's hard to see how that could cause so many 1 star reviews. This was my first time coming, upon the recommendation of a good friend and coworker who had the pinhole gum procedure done (which Dr. Chao invented!). All of the staff were extremely helpful from the minute I walked in. One of the doctors even stopped what she was doing to ask me if I needed help with my paperwork and answered a few of my questions. As I waited in the lobby area, I witnessed them take in 3-4 of their regulars as if they were family. The staff greeted them all by name and chatted with them the same way as one would with a friend they hadn't seen in a few months. The patients seemed just as happy and relaxed to be there. I went in for a consultation for my recessing gums and to ask about his pinhole procedure. Dr. Chao was very friendly and explained to me what he thought of my gum situation. There was absolutely no feelings of being pressured into any procedures. He actually advised me that I may not need anything done at all and gave me recommendations for making sure it doesn't get to the point where I may need surgery! Again, not quite sure about the other reviews. All in all it was a pleasant experience and everyone was very professional and friendly. They even gave me hi-res print outs of my teeth and gums to take with me. I'll do everything I can to keep my dental hygiene top notch but if for some reason I do end up needing work, I have a good idea where to make my first stop. read more

Dr. Chao's practice and staff are absolutely the best, they make you feel very welcome. They are very informative, the best dentist I know of. I've had some bad luck with dentist up here in NW Washington, one dentist in White Rock I was seeing did great gold filling work, but never said anything about gum disease, had he been more concerned about gum disease than doing fillings, I might have saved so much distress over the last 15 years, I feel because I put my trust in this BC dentist, he also helped contribute to me having a heart attack in 2012, I've since learned gum health and heart disease are connected, apparently it's the same plaque. It's very unfortunate, but I can't go back, and would recommend to all, to get second and third opinions when it concerns your health, not all doctors and dentists are good, we put our blind trust into these folks, with sometimes very negative results. When you find someone that really knows and wants the best, then you stick with them. Dr. Chao and staff have saved my teeth and gum line. I recommend them to everyone I talk to about dental health, and also have a stack of their flyers on my counter at Horseshoe Coins & Antiques. I wish I would have known about Alhambra Dental Clinic 15 years ago. By the way, this dentist is the first dentist in my life, that has check my pocket depth and seemed to have gum health in high regard. Very highly recommended!! Thank you Alhambra Dental Clinic! Bill Becht Blaine, Wash. read more

I was referred to this dental office by a family friend, due to my recent move to the area I decided to give this office a try, like every new place I decide to go to, I like to look at past reviews, I was not to pleased with some of what I read, though some reviews were pleasant. Luckily for me I have great trust in my long time friend who informed me that she has been a patient of Dr.Chao for many years, So I decided to schedule an appointment. I'm so glad I did!!! From the very friendly phone call to schedule my appointment at a convenient time, to meeting Dr. Chao, who was very reassuring to my dental concerns. Sarah the hygienist who cleaned my teeth was very gentle and informative. I am happy to say, my home care will improve from my dental visit to Dr. Chao's office. Overall I am very happy with my experience in the dental clinic, with such a great staff, I am happy I scheduled my appointment and looking forward to my next scheduled visit. Thank you Dr. Chao and staff. read more

John Chao, DDS - Calm garden view from the dental chair. Can't get better than this!! - General Dentistry Near Me - Alhambra, California

Recently I had a consultation with Dr. John Chao, and I decided not to move forward. I should have read the reviews and saved myself time and money. Dr. Chao charges $100.00 for a consultation, but would not provide me with a treatment plan and costs until I paid anther $450.00 for a dose of radiation from a CT Scan. read more

DO NOT GO TO THIS DENTIST The whole experience was terrible so unsettleing just a mistake from the minute i walked in from the work done to amount i paid. The moment i walked in i felt something was not right first visit i was there for 5 hr and had to wait to be seen for about 45 minutes. Dentist teaches all his staff to treat paitents like a high presurred sale, very impersonal, strange, but i did get cought up in a stiuation i would normally never would have. Big mistake, not very good. Pleas4e go some where else trust me something is terrible wrong with this business. Although the staff is kind probably only following directions from dentist but do no go in at all. read more

This dental office is very expensive. They make recommendations for pricey procedures that you most likely do not need or that you can get for a better value elsewhere. I had a cleaning done here was encouraged by Dr. Chao to replace all my silver fillings with porcelain and to do so using the laser method. He quoted some hideous amount for the work and suggested some other cosmetic dentistry work. I had to pay $100 for some deposit and was supposed to get it back, but his staff conveniently "forgot" to and said they would do so but didn't until I said I would dispute the charge with my credit card company. I will credit them with having some great technology in the office for dentistry, but it's not worth it when they recommend work that you don't necessarily need. read more

This crazy dentist charge my dad $550 for his "3D x-ray", they recommend him somethings that he totally did not need it because he only has few teeth left. I have never hear any dentist charge that high for just a x-ray. No treat any of his teeth, not even including cleaning. read more

The last time I was in his office for a consultation, there were cockroaches crawling around the walls. There maybe more, you know how cockroaches multiply. Imagining the roaches crawling around hid dental instruments which go inside your mouth is not very pleasant. Who knows what kind of germs and diseases are thriving in that office I rather have bad teeth than catchingn some incurable disease from this dentist read more

Excellent Dentist, but I have to agree that his prices are way beyond expensive, and the pressure to do additional and unnecessary dental work frustrating. The scare tactics in this office make my stomach turn. They are all so nice though. This is a superior dentist who should probably have his office in Beverly Hills where they gladly might pay these crazy prices. But they are very nice indeed! Just stay away. read more

While the review is low, it is not because of the staff. The support staff have always been wonderful and I loved going there for my regular cleanings and check ups. The staff are very knowledgeable and helpful. The low rating is for a variety of other procedures. I agree with the other reviews that the procedures are quite costly. They are really good at helping you get financing for the dental work. I had the pinhole procedure in 2010 to help my receding gum line and after about 4 years, my gums seem to be back where they started. The biggest issue I have with this procedure and the office is that I was told the process was complete after the pinhole procedure, but that was not the case. At one of my follow up visits, when I mentioned how much my upper right bicuspid was still not covered by the gum line, I was told that was OK because they were going to drill out a section and fill it in with a filling. I was NOT OK with this but felt like I did not have a choice! My concern was that unnecessary drilling was being done and that there was a high likelihood for the filling to fall out (due to its nature & location). About a year and a half later it did fall out & then developed a cavity in that location. If I had been able to afford it, I should have gone back and gotten it filled again, but I couldn't so, that part is on me. Now I am worried about needing a root canal or losing the tooth. read more

I found Dr. Chao on google for a gum treatment technique he invented so I decided to visit his office for consultation. I never expected to be treated and cared for with such genuine care, comprehensive treatment plan with the latest technology, and a friendly patient, supportive staff. I have gone there 3 times now for a variety of deep cleaning and recommended repair and maintenance program, and never have I ever look forward to seeing my dentist until now. Dr. Chao's office is my go to dentist now even though it takes me at least an hour drive each way to see him, Gia, and Peggy. I highly recommend his services especially for people who are in great need of a comprehensive oral care program. From my initial phone conversation with April, who is always so friendly, patient, and happy to answer all of my questions, to Salima (sp?) who patiently explained the procedures to me even if I keep asking the same questions three different ways, to Joy, who is great at scheduling me and accommodating my work schedule and working with my dental insurance timely to get reimbursement, and the two awesome hygienists Gia and Peggy who are so thorough and meticulous and yet comforting, and for educating me with proper oral care, all with a friendly smile. I am so happy to come to Dr. Chao's office even though getting there is tough with heavy traffic. If you want first class oral care, please go see Dr. Chao. Some of the procedures are not cheap but they are well worth it. read more

I've been coming to Alhambra Dental for about 30 years. I've had cavities filled, crowns done and general cleanings galore. I can say without reserve that the quality and care are superb, and that includes the billing staff (on several occasions my insurance has covered everything and so the dental office sent me a check for the estimated co-pay.) I've never had a long wait, either. Loses one star only because they are a bit pricier than some other dentists I've been to. But the work has been superior. I can highly recommend them. read more

Been coming here for 9 years now. Came in with gum disease. Dr Chao did a great job treating it and all of my other dental needs. Gia always does a great job cleaning my teeth. Amalia ,Joy, Sarah,Karen and especially Deanna are always a pleasure to come see!!! read more

I had a very good experience with Dr. Chao's office. My dentist in the Central Valley told me of a receding gum problem. After looking into traditional treatments, I decided I didn't want that pain and long recovery, and I found Dr. Chao's office performed an innovative technique that didn't require stitches or cutting. Needless to say, I am happy I chose to drive down to Alhambra for the procedure. Yes, it was expensive. Yes, I felt it was worth it (especially after hearing insurance is chipping in too). The office staff and dental assistants were exceptionally nice to me, and I would return and make them my regular dental health provider if I lived in the area. read more

The office here is really well kept, clean and nicely designed (if you're into that kind of thing). I love the wood flooring, comfy lobby and the feeling that you aren't at a dental office, feels more like a home. The staff is very kind and easy going and you're not being rushed or rushed and left by the dentist. The dental care is excellent and it's great to be somewhere that you aren't being talked into extra dental care that you don't need. I will be going here regularly! read more

John Chao, DDS - Part of the front desk and waiting room. - General Dentistry Near Me - Alhambra, California

So far, I went there thrice since end of August 2014. He and his staff are very nice. His office is big (looks small from the outside), impressive, busy (lots of patients so expect long waits), high-tech (even got copies of the 3D scans which I got addicted at home!), and fancy. read more

I've had work done by Dr. Chao in the past when I was working. I had good Dental Insurance then but I was injured and unfortunately I'm no longer employed. Now Disabled, Diabetic and having TMJ Issues, I need a lot of work done. On SSI and have Denti-Cal Insurance I needed to find a Dentist who was Patient as well as gentle due to my TMJ (Jaw issue. Can't keep mouth open long. Very painful) I wrote a hand written letter to Dr. Chao hoping that he would respond one way or another. I did acknowledge to him that I knew he was in high demand, a very busy Dr., teaching as well as having his office to attend to. And on the radio at times from what I recall as well as writing articles in our local Monterey Park, Cascades. My letter was reaching out to him for help. If he were able to somehow help me with my dental issues or if he could refer me to someone. I really didn't expect him to offer his services for free but I thought maybe he would refer me to someone that could possibly help me who was willing to accept my Dental Insurance. I left my Cell number, my Home number and my Address. Well it's week number 3 since I sent that letter and still no response. What am I saying, he did respond didn't he. He responded by not responding. So disappointed. I was hopeful :( read more

Great website, believe me. I got suckered by it so I called in to try to make an appointment. They charge $65 for an examination/consultation (fair enough) but would not give me an estimate for teeth whitening. The receptionist really beat around the bush as I repeatedly asked for an estimate, finally telling me she "No, could not give me an estimate". My advice, find a dentistry where they will be honest with pricing, especially with a set procedure such as 1 hour whitening. Otherwise you may be walking right into a money trap. read more

Very friendly and helpful staff. Dr. Chao is an excellent Dentist and has helped me get my smile in order.

I was referred to Dr. Chao for the pinhole procedure by my dentist. Let me start by saying I do not care for most dentists. For the past few years every one I saw was like a used car salesman telling me I need something and it was not covered by insurance. So when I went in to see Dr. Chao my guard was up. The staff was AMAZING! They were very nice and helpful. When Dr. Chao came in he educated me about his procedure and gave me all the facts. There was no hard sell or pressure to get it done. When I decided to go thought the procedure the staff (Joy) worked with my insurance and saved me a lot of money. (Thank you) Fast forward one year and I could not be happier. My gums look better than I could have ever thought. I live in OC and it was well worth the hour plus drive to have it all done. I only wish I live closer Dr. Chao would be my full time dentist. read more

Dr Chow and his staff are very helpful and professional. Dr. Chow has helped with multiple dental issues and also performed his new gum procedure which prevents surgery. He stays informed of and develops leading edge dentistry procedures. read more

My experience at Dr. Chao"s Office was unexpected from day one. My spouse discovered him while tuning into his radio show via USC. Over the course of several years, & multiple procedures, my respect for his skill level, professionalism, humanitarianism, tenacity & work ethic never wavered. This office appears to be well-managed & staff members which include receptionists, hygienists, & support technicians are pleasant, thoughtful, & they work cohesively. Every procedure was thoroughly explained & I never felt any trepidation or need to seek a second opinion. I was relieved to receive service with minimal discomfort, "pinch free", injections & reasonable care in a timely manner. I had literally "lost my smile." However, due to Dr. Chao's aversion to silver fillings (health risk) & expertise with dental bonding, reconstructive surgery & veneers, I now feel confident but mostly grateful. If you desire a great dentist with a warm demeanor & a commitment to cutting edge dental technology, make an appointment soon! By the way, Dr. Chao ENJOYS apple pie. :-) read more

all of the years of pain and bleeding with my teeth and then i met master dentist dr. john c. chao. i saw him being interviewed on a cable channel and from what i herd i knew he was the dentist , the one who would save my teeth and stop the pain and bleeding. he and his staff are super professional and i love it every time i go there. when i showed my insurance dentist my teeth his only answere to my problem was to extract 14 of my teeth. when i showed dr. chao the paper work he replied noooo wayyyy. your money is well spent here at his office in alhambra ca. and ive used their no intrest plans credit for many months with care credit or their no intrest plan with citi groupe. so ladies and gentelmen before you finance anything else please take care any problem you may have with youre teeth and jump on board with the many many patients that came for help and recieved the best professional help on earth. oh ,,, i must say with doctor chao you will never feel any pain durring procedure or even after !!!! please people. i grew up in dental chairs and it was very painful. i was very honest with dr. chao and told him when i first met him that i was very scared. he told me not to worry and he was being very honest with me !!!!! stop pain now-see dr chao-he-knows how !!!! so happy i didn't let the union dentist pull 14 of my teeth. i would have to walk around looking like a grand piano. dr. john c. chao saved my teeth !!!!!! please ,,, let him save yours !!!!!! read more