Journey Homes has been exceptional through our entire purchase process and our first 2 months of service requests. I saw so many bad reviews I was hesitant to buy but let me tell you Liz at the sales office so accommodating with so many times I came to see the house before it was ours it was never a bother to her and she's super friendly and helpful! Norm (our customer service rep) doesn't hesitate to get our punch list completed and then some and the subcontractors have been amazing through the entire process. We LOVE our Journey Home and our beautiful neighborhood here at Ravina. read more

Low quality builds. Our "new construction" home had a big hole in the carpet that we advised of before closing. They advised the carpets in backorder and no other options. The low quality rolled out linoleum also bubbled and even after "repair" continued to do it. We ripped the lower level carpet and linoleum out and replaced all the flooring at our cost. The countertops are laminate. That's so low quality. We also took that out and replaced with inexpensive granite. They did put in a $500 ceiling fan. Don't know why they picked that to splurge on. The rest that we installed were less than $200 on Amazon with the remote. Really dumb choice in the master bath for the bathtub. It's apparently supposed to be one that stands alone, but they built it in to be used as a tub/shower combo. So now when you shower, the water flows to the side where you get out and pools there. All that bc if it was a shower only, they couldn't ask as much for the house. Yeah, I would rather not have the mess. The laundry room isn't deep enough where the washer and dryer go if you want the XL size. We had to stack them bc the door won't close to the laundry room if they are side by side. Before closing asked if we could get the gas option for the stove. Nope bc they already put a stove in. So? Take it out and put it in another house. Charge us for the upgrade. They did spend the money on good paint. So there's that. But inside it's just basic white. Color doesn't cost extra so why not pick at least like beige or light gray? They made terrible builder choices for the landscape in the actual community too so now our HOA money has to go to redoing all of that. read more

Journey Homes - Hole in the carpet - Home Developers Near Me - Greeley, Colorado

I'd give a 0 if I could! Poor quality homes. We bought brand new and have already had our driveway replaced, window wells have rusted out and they took concrete out and refuse to replace it! DO NOT BUY FROM JOURNEY read more

Journey Homes - Window wells rusting after just a year - Home Developers Near Me - Greeley, Colorado

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Poor quality, seems the builders don't care, not only have they left my back yard a mess with nails, trash, and a bunch of what seems like concrete chunks from something they ripped out or replaced. After the blue tape walk through they left things I asked to be fixed laying in the yard from wooden post with long nails and other wood piece with nails that thankful though hidden by the snow at the time my dog didn't step on them. The worst part is we wanted to replace the carpet and laminate in the dining room kitchen area with Vinyl since have kids and animals, when pulling up the laminate around the kitchen and breakfast bar area we found active growing mold and had been in the house for about 4 days since closing. It was a fight to get them to do anything which they eventually sent a mitigation team who cleaned the area and the air surrounding the mold but not the whole house. They refused to do a mold test to see what type or further testing to make sure it was all cleaned and gone beyond an air test. We had a test run our selves and they found active growing mold in the areas they they cleaned, disinfected and supposedly cleared. We have a newborn who has had positive respiratory test come back from his doctor at 2 weeks old. read more

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We moved in 2.5 years ago and the entire closing experience was horrible working with Journey Homes (poor communication). Since we have lived here over 2 years while we are still waiting for their Warranty team to take care of the 1 year Home Warranty (over 7 month late now). It is amazing how this company's actions do not support a professional home builder in anyway. I have a dozen of examples of how Journey Homes cuts corners outside the city inspection codes and guidelines. Plus after 2 years, while I continue wait for the 1 year warranty repairs, I found out now I have a plumbing issue in the house that I will have to pay out of pocket. I guess Journey Homes is proud to build a home that has plumbing issues (2 years into the home) and washes their hands of this issues, but they can not even live up to their warranty promises. Great example of one way street in promises. Finally, when we did close on the house and drove to the house to enjoy our new home, we were presented a new home that was not even cleaned (construction debris). We spent the next day cleaning up after this great home builder. The best advice I can offer a family who wants a new home experience is to stay away from this builder. read more

Bought a home in 2020 and moved in 2021. The home I viewed prior to making a decision had many option like countertop Ogee/Bull Nose edge and a closed in utility space in the basement. I even asked if these would be a part of my home too and I was told, "Yes. Everything you see in this home will be in your home." They weren't. Doors swing open because they aren't square and plumb. The window wells are rusting because they didn't affix them properly and electrolysis is occurring. Settling is normal in Colorado, but my front steps AND my driveway are both so bad I need to have both repaired. Oh, and the steps sinking at my front porch has caused some of the brick siding to break and become damaged, so I'll have to repair that too. Same with the back porch and the siding of the house it is adjacent too; is causing the siding to displace. Journey Homes sacrifices speed of building to get their money quickly and then the sacrifice quality in doing so. I'm embarrassed to say how much I paid for this home and how it is now in such disrepair. You ask, "Why not just contact Journey Homes and have them come repair these things." The warranty for this home and the ones in the subdivision only lasted a year. I've also seen the work that's been done by Journey Homes from my neighbors requesting things to be repaired and corrected within the warranty period. They took forever to get it accomplished and the repairs were just as hasty and mediocre as the original build. They are one of the worst companies I've given money to and I regret doing so. If this home was built with the quality standards you would expect to pay for, then it would be fine. If they would honor their word and not tell lies in order to just grab the cash and run, it would have been a great experience and I would feel satisfied. Unfortunately, Journey Homes is satisfied with taking your money, getting you in a house with poor subcontractors doing the work, and then they give attitude when you ask them to correct or fix something that should have been done correctly in the first place. If I could give it no stars or negative stars, I would. I feel taken advantage of and buyer beware, right? It's for real. These people will swindle you and tell you all sorts of falsehoods and then not keep up their end of the deal. Two thumbs down emoji. read more

If any of you other journey home owners are interested in slapping a class action suit LMK, something needs to be done to stop this madness. We've been on our new journey money pit for only 2 months and already seen sink holes so bad our fence had to be redone and gate wouldn't/couldn't open, a water leak in master bath, deck steps falling , concrete outside of garage replaced ( which is happening to I'd say 90% of the homes here) , the list is long and I'm getting angry just rethinking it all! And the warranty guy is a complete arrogant l, rude person. Constantly telling me he has over 900 other homes to take care of, as if that's my problem. Maybe if journey would slow down and take some pride in what they do. They through these homes up in about 24 days, and if twice one thing I've learned from having so many repair men in to fix things is that journey is the worst and they have (EVERY ONE OF THEM) told me journey puts the homes up too fast and don't care about the out come. Funny thing , well not funny , the owner lives in a $15 million home.....how want to bet that home has zero problems! I would love to start a class action suit , if anyone had more info and would like to be part of this please contact me. read more

Journey Homes - This is the garage where one of the holes is from a water leak! Remember we are only 2 months in this new mess of a home. - Home Developers Near Me - Greeley, Colorado

We have owned three new homes and we have been in the business of renovating homes and reselling them. Journey Homes has been the best developer of the new home we recently purchased. The last new home we owned where Taylor Morrison was the developer was the absolute worst. So, we know the difference. We view our Journey Home as well constructed and we believe we got a great deal on the price given the real estate market. We have submitted warranty items that have been addressed in a timely fashion. We have been able to meet the contractors and each one of them has been friendly, knowledgeable, and fixed the problems to our satisfaction. Norm from the warranty claims division has been wonderful to us and we appreciate him. The online portal to check the status of warranty work is great. Colorado has expansive soils. Developers do their best to mitigate the issues with expansive soils. However, the fact is concrete will crack and move. This is a given in Colorado. It's why joints are put into the concrete pads to account for movement. Hopefully, the cracks will be minor. However, the developer cannot predict how the soil will move and how the concrete will crack. This is why they put a limitation on their responsibility for what is really beyond their control. I know it can be frustrating for first-time homebuyers who expect the home to remain pristine over time as when first purchased. However, this is an unreasonable expectation when buying a home in Colorado. read more

We do not have a journey home due to its poor reputation when we built. There are a number of journey homes in our neighborhood and they have all had issues with concrete settling and cracking and Windows out of alignment. Steps that were uneven and different heights. Our home value has appreciated because we used a much better builder. Kendalbrook complaints to the City of Loveland caused the city of Loveland to ban this builder. read more

This company is the worst. Never buy from them. You file a warranty claim and they take 4 months to do simple things then say you're out of warranty. Norm and Brian are the worst. If you comment on their FB page they block you! read more

You will NEVER find a more disreputable company than this. Houses built SO POORLY, and they don't want you to know about it. Showed us a house that, come to find out, they knew was in no condition to sell. Had an inspection done and they found numerous "egregious" (their word, not mine) problems with damage to the roof. They're attitude is to "take our word for it, it's fixed" and then slander US saying that they don't "trust (us) to close" (paying cash for this house, mind you). They are an absolute shameful business and anyone looking for a house should look elsewhere. They RUSH to crank out these homes as fast as possible with ZERO attention to detail. Then try to blame you, the buyer, for pointing it out to them. Just take your money and set it on fire; it will be the same type of experience. The worst of the worst. read more

Buying a Journey home is a complete waste of money. fortunately (and unfortunately) for me, I rent one. but I do feel bad for the owner of the home as she has had to foot the bill for a laundry list of issues. these homes are extremely poorly built, but I guess that is to be expected when they are constructed in a month. my house is only a little over two years old, and so far we've had the following issues: entire wall/ceiling replaced in the basement - the builders punctured a hole in the plumbing with multiple nails which eventually caused flooding through the wall/ceiling. the small window in the guest bathroom upstairs was installed upside down. the main window in our dining room was supposed to be replaced a year and a half ago because it wasn't sealed and installed properly. they delivered the window and have never installed it so it's just been sitting in our garage. sides of our kitchen counter tops are falling apart and coming off. it took them over a year to install the fence in the backyard. our garage door handle fell off, our back yard gate won't open or close anymore. the paint above the bathtub in the master bedroom is flaking off. we've had numerous issues with the HVAC and duct work in the house. the shower doors in the finished basement bathroom were not installed properly so they fall off. the driveway and back patio cement is completely cracked in certain areas. the sidewalk on the side of our house is uprooted to where there is a foot of space between the ground and the cement. we are pretty sure the foundation of the house is slipping and tilting. other journey home owners in our neighborhood have had the same issue. on top of all of these issues, the warranty reps are awful. they never get back to you, and are never timely in their service orders. when we had our one year warranty inspection, they took note of everything that was under warranty to fix, and then never came back to fix any of it. i also know first hand that these homes are NOT energy efficient (if that's something you're looking for as a buyer). if you're going to spend this type of money on a home, please find a better builder. read more

Moved in to "new home" Was dirty, things poorly installed or not even completed. Who does this to people?? I guess I have found my answer read more

Do not buy a Journey Home. There work is sub-par AT BEST. They put these homes up as fast as they can without worrying about quality or safety. My neighbor had his whole deck collapse on them and the neighbor was badly hurt. Areas inside and out of my home were missing paint, drawer facings and sealant was missing around tub, shower and other plumbing fictures. The pipes in the home make a banging sound when the toikets are flushed and they said that was normal. No it is not. They also planted the front yard tree right on top of our gas line. When it was brought to there attention they said it was my problem and they do that all the time. However, once the roots grow and interfere with the line excel will hold me accountable so II had to have the tree ripped out. Buyer be ware. I will NEVER buy another Journey homes house. Neither should you. Poor quality. read more

Worst workmanship ever!! Loose electrical qcrooked walls loose walls, cheapest fixtures available. We are rebuilding the entire home because we like the area. read more

Do not buy a J&J home! As others posted they don't care, they won't fix anything and the concrete sucks! The concrete has been chipped and holes in it since before I moved in, never fixed. I am also having structural issues in a fairly new home. Appliances work like they are used. Be careful and check everything! read more

Several issues on initial punch list were ignored. Structural beam wasn't even secured and beat in splintered and left. Don't want to fix it. Pay the $500 for an outside home inspection since you can't on the initial. Might as well buy a mobile home, same quality and a whole lot cheaper. read more

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Like pulling teeth to get a warranty claim resolved. Not to mention we did our walk through a day before closing, but were assured that we would have all of our blue tape issues resolved. Needless to say we walked in after closing to a house full of blue tape.. Being a young couple with a baby on the way, we are beginning to regret our choice in going through Journey Homes. read more

I rarely leave reviews because you must put at least one start. If I could give Journey Homes a -1 Star, that would be a more fitting rating. The laziness of the builder is astounding. I don't understand why so many cities continue to allow them to build within their limits. Our driveway begin to crack within the first year of ya moving in. On our master bathroom, there is tile glue under the paint in the tub where they were supposed to tile it further up the wall. Instead, they put one row of tile and painted over the glue. Now the paint is peeling off. Some of the floors in our house are not level. There is a small hole in the stairs that allows a you to see into the basement. POOR QUALITY. We will be purchasing a second home in the near future and the first thing I told or realtor is if he shows us a Journey Home, I will find a new realtor. read more

I am writing a review for a recent home purchase we made. We bought the home when they were still building. The Realtor and the builder wanted us to sign off on the home before the corrections were made. The realtor promised us that everything would be taken care of. He claimed to know the owner. So I signed off on it and they came in and did a few things, but left most of the issues unfinished. The home was built very badly. I am very nervous about having this home. Especially after reading other reviews. read more

At the end of July 2017, I closed a Journey Home and my buyers and I had a fantastic experience dealing with their sales manager Bob Golba who met us at the sales office and showed us several of their floor plans. Bob was very friendly, personable and was always available day or night to answer any questions or concerns. Overall the team at Journey Homes was wonderful to work with and I look forward to working with them again. read more

I live in a Journey Home and the work has been done in a very sloppy manner. Water pools around the bathtub and apparently this is an issue Journey Homes is very well aware of and they refuse to fix it. The screws in the drywall are very visible and the mud is falling off leaving them completely exposed. A lot of shoddy work done! read more

I wish could give theses clowns 0 stars. Call three days prior asked to see a home deal with the same individual Carl, he said it would be no problem. Showed up on her schedule appointment to find out a couple was moving into the home prior to closing. After venting some frustration about our 2 hour drive he copped a huge attitude. I feel like it was a blessing though. Shortly after I left I I looked up journey homes and noticed a lot all the negative reviews including some 7 news articles about Shotty work. read more

Buyer beware! They hire sub-standard contractors: electrical, plumbing, cabinets, floors, roof, concrete and so much more. You will spend money fixing issues that you should never have to fix within the first 5 years of a new build. Had so many issues and every year I find something new. If you buy a Journey home, get multiple inspectors and have a good amount in savings to pay for the electricians, plumbs, carpenters, roofers, etc. Really, better to go with another builder if you don't want the trouble and expense. read more

They build them fast but skimp on quality. Truth said, I am disappointed with my "new" home. The sad part? It is totally avoidable mistakes. Cheap and poor craftsmanship. Material is cheap...wooden floors pit (they show one wood in the model and give you another). Have to replace driveway that was insufficiently installed. Even their own contractors and staff rip them for their practices. You have to force them and keep on them to fix their errors. Buyer beware. Update: the repairs you want/need have to be haggled for. Waiting on some for 8 months; scheduling was horrible (e.g., no shows, late, bad cleanup). Stay away!!!! Three year update: their LEC Construction has had to dig up our driveway four times due to their errors. Can you talk about incompetence? They damage the façade of our house and said nothing as well. Love coming home to the place full of cigarette butts in my front yard too. read more

You get what you pay for. My husband and I knew going in we were buying a starter home and that even though it would be a new build - it would not be the greatest quality. Needless to say, many of the problems were avoidable and due to laziness. They fixed many - but others, like concrete work - they won't fix after you purchase - even if it was their fault. Our garage/driveway slope is not correct and they state it's not covered in warranty. Also we have some lumpy floors due to uneven concrete - at this point also not covered. We claimed a warped call (a corner is not straight) and they "fixed" it, made it worse, and stated to actually fix it they would need to put in new drywall, and that they would not do that. We have some issues we are not sure if it's even worth to claim because they will probably find a way out of them. They did schedule and fix most of our warranty claims fairly quickly. If you purchase, know what you are getting and do a VERY thorough walk thru to document problems before you close. read more

I purchased a Journey home several months back and couldn't be happier. They were very helpful and nice throughout the entire process. Any and all of my concerns were addressed prior to closing, and believe me I had an eagle eye out as my previous home was a Richmond and the construction was horrible! I couldn't be happier and I truly love my home. Thank you Journey Homes! read more

If you do buy a Journey home, make sure you have an inspection done before you close, either before or after your walkthrough. I have major concrete issues that have come up since I purchased my home 5 years ago. Journey will not correct any of them and I'm not sure I would want them to. Their quality and craftsmanship is more than just lacking, it doesn't exist. Just because these are starter homes doesn't mean they should be lacking in quality. read more

Just wanted to let everybody know out there careful what you get into we just bought a home through Journey homes when we sign the contract for them to build it they never mention anything about this Ark thing.. I never heard anything about it until after closing when I was sitting down reading it. I'm almost starting to think that I would have had more freedom to do anyting at an apartment. least there I don't have to put turn in a proposal to Ark to wipe my nose. So just letting everybody know if you're planning on going looking at a house there make sure you read the agricultural Review Committee. Even though you might have to put in a proposal to Ark to read those read more

Extremely rude, disrespectful and aggressive workers. Have witnessed unsafe driving and blatant disrespect of others.

In the house for 20 months. Supposed to be "brand new". The front steps needed to be replaced. $1500. The back patio and steps are falling off the house. So now I need to come up with another $5000. And the driveway.. just sinking a little but I know that will need it some day. No cement in the concrete, no rebar, they don't even pack down the dirt .. if you see a house for sale built by JOURNEY pass it by. read more

I have worked with Journey Homes for years, on a professional level (I am a real estate agent). My family decided to buy one of their homes, knowing fully these homes are very much "lower" quality than most. However we decided it would be a good investment to buy a standard home, and build it up over time. And as I said, we knew very well we would be getting what we paid for (which we have). And as many reviewers have said, warranty items either weren't "covered", or it was only slightly after the 1 year mark we noticed things. Here we are 4 years in to owning a Journey Home, and have had numerous problems with plumbing, concrete, etc. that could have easily been avoided if their contractors would have taken the extra 5 minutes to do the job they should have in the first place. But unfortunately when you have a company that builds so many lower quality homes all over Northern Colorado, and value their net profits far more than their quality of work, you will indeed get what you pay for. But it's not even the above that was the kicker for me to leave this review. The owner of the company ruined it for me. Long story short, the owner convinced one of my clients....whom I had worked with for some time and had spent so many long hours away from my own family trying to help....that they should work directly with the owner and drop me as their agent, so he wouldn't have to pay my commission. He swore to my clients, who felt awful for no longer working with me, that he would take care of me and send me new clients to make up for it. This has been 2 years ago now, and not a single lead from Journey. I know very well that this industry means working a lot of hours, and numerous files that don't always close (which in the end means working for zero compensation in those instances). However as a professional, I also know that those of us who truly hold themselves at a true "professional" level in this industry, we try very hard to take care of each other. As agents, we value each other's work, and time, and efforts. And if a promise is made, or a referral is given, that promise is followed up on and a referral is given back completely out of respect for each other. This is my career, but it is also how I take care of my family. So when I feel like I have been burned unfairly, and the means that I take care of my family is chosen by someone to not only steal but then ignore...then you can bet I will voice my opinion in hopes someone else doesn't have their work stolen from their family as well. I have reached out to the Journey team, and Bob Golba in particular, many times in the past 2 years. I heard those "promises" for about the first year, and then they just stopped responding to my emails or phone calls altogether. It's just saddening that not only as a "professional" company that they claim to be, they have zero respect for the rest of the agents in their industry. But they also don't mind hurting one of their very own buyers of their homes either. As a professional, I will still sell their homes because they make sense for some of my buyers. But you can bet I will also be honest to my clients about the workmanship/cosmetic issues, and especially the potentially larger settling, structural, etc. issues known to come with these homes. I will NEVER lie to my clients just for a sale, because I am not one concerned with only net profit as this company as. And I will also ALWAYS take care of other agents because we are all in this crazy industry together. read more

We bought a Journey home about 2 months ago, so far so good... after seeing some of these negative reviews we are a little nervous but everything is going well so far. We did a VERY through walk through before we closed and were at the build site almost every day. Any time we pointed out a flaw they were fixed right away... fingers crossed everything stays OK read more

Nothing good to say about Journey Homes. We have been in our home for 3 years and keep finding issues. Concrete work is horrible, Paint and trim inside and out is lousy. Overall it appears that sub contractors were told to meet undoable time frames and to hell with quality. Even the items on walk thru punch list were barely acceptable. Absolutely no pride in craftsmanship. Don't buy from these guys! read more

i am a commercial contractor and bought this new journey home due to availability on the market. They never actually fixed a warranty claim and I completed the repairs myself. The largest issue is that on my particular street they were behind schedule and included A/C for free. The problem is they installed a 1.5 ton condensing unit in a home that requires a 3-3.5. The ductwork is also undersized. The coils in my furnace freeze non stop because the unit is underrated. I have standing water in my basement at all times. I have also fixed bowed walls. Incorrect electrical junction boxes, siding that has ripped off my home due to concrete slumping, holes in my siding that were never patched. The list goes on and on. You will spend more money repairing a journey home to the quality of a meritage. Spend the extra $20-30k and buy a quality home. read more

DO NOT BUY A JOURNEY HOME! Like other reviews say, you get what you pay for. And the customer service is even worse. Journey Homes is only there to generate a profit, they don't care if they screw you over as long as got your money. Home is fairly new (1.5 years old) so the warranty is 6 months over. There is a major construction flaw with the house and is causing leaking inside the home. Journey & J&J won't do a thing for you after the warranty is up. Spread the word to everyone you know and meet. DO NOT BY A JOURNEY HOME. read more

closed on our house June 2015 - took WEEKS to get simple things addressed. within months our driveway started crumbling, (looks even worse now) Journey sent us an email saying concrete "was not part of their responsibility or warrantied" but they were going to fix it anyway "in good faith" and would be back by September, ya right, a total lie. Their standard windows are as cheap as you can possibly find and when the wind blows the windowsills have 1/4" of dirt. Most owners in our neighborhood say "you might as well fix it yourself" when you have problems, even their outside electrician told me that when we were moving in. DONT BUY FROM THESE GUYS UNLESS YOU ARE A HANDYMAN BY TRADE read more

we bought a house from them 3years ago and insulation is know falling in are towl closets. Because the house has settled so much. Are concrect started to fall apart with in the first six months. There has to be a way all of can come together and sue. These stories are all to common. read more

I wish I could give this builder zero stars. They throw these houses up quickly and the craftsmanship shows. I've been in my house only a week though I closed 2 weeks ago and the problems have already begun. To date I have 13 issues into warranty with only two completed in 2 weeks and am still waiting for a fence that was promised to be done by the end of the month (ironically, lots with no homes on them have a fence up that was completed just today). Some of the problems include broken kitchen cabinets, walk thru items that still haven't been completed, paint issues, a whole in a pantry door, a bedroom door that isn't properly hinged because they've managed to strip it, etc. Sadly, none of this should surprise me as my issues started prior to closing with an arrogant, condescending salesman named Mike. Had I not been in a position where I needed to move quickly I would have dropped this house and builder in a heartbeat. Mike apparently found it quite acceptable to be rude to me on several occasions while alone but when my realtor was with me he was a completely different person, it makes me glad that I started recording our conversations after our first condescending conversation in case my allegations ever came into question. I would not recommend purchasing a Journey Home, their terrible customer service and shoddy work simply isn't worth the money you'll be spending. This company is garbage. read more

I have owned my Journey Home for a little over a year and a half and yesterday water was found leaking from the overhead light/ceiling fan in the master bedroom. I contacted Journey and was immediately told the the 1 year warranty was up and it was my problem. I contacted the roofing sub-contractor who immediately sent a person to look at the roof. He found that there was ice and snow build up in the attic that was coming from the roof venting. Since it was not a roofing problem I re-contacted Journey and explained that the leak was possibly due to the original insulation blocking the soffit vents or that there was not enough vents in the roof to allow the pressure to block the wind and snow from entering the attic. I was again immediately told that this was my problem. So I guess I should have climbed into the attic to make sure there was no blockage of the soffit vents or to determine if more vents were needed within the first year. So now I have to find another contractor to determine and fix the problem on 1 1/2 year old home. This is basic home construction. I am now wondering if building codes are being followed or the homes inspected. An additional problem is that a light fixture that has water running through it ... fire concern! Other problems; counters pulling away from walls, caulking splitting, a light in the laundry room with no wall switch, front concrete steps cracking, sliding door with no insulation at the bottom (a nice cool breeze in the winter), property grades that pushes water run off into your neighbors back yard, brick facia falling off the front of the house. My problems are small compared to some of my neighbors ... sewer problems, driveway concrete, etc. If you have a realtor who is showing you a journey home, get a new realtor! read more