Run away - don't waste your money or time. Over 2 years and a perfect 7 year history, this ripoff, bogus company still has not changed these damaged rugs. I begged my 73 year old Mom to move but the pandemic happened. Havenbrook sent 2 people out to take pictures and one to measure the floors. Crickets - no call back to schedule or set u the new floors. If you want respect, accountability and service do not use this company. They also refuse to seal the crawl space door so every 3 months, the HVAC unit goes out. I have a review on Google under Tamara J - proof that they are unresponsive and negligent. read more

I don't know where to begin. If I could give no stars I would. Renting from them was one the biggest mistakes I have every made in my life. I wish I would have read these reviews before I applied. Since moving in it's been one issue after another . The house was not as advertised. I quickly applied because homes where going fast in the area we wanted to live. So before seeing the inside of the home I had already signed the lease , and put the 500 deposit down. After seeing the home I was like no , it was dirty. And smelled like dogs lived in the house . I was promised the house wasn't ready . I went ahead to move after being told they would fix all what need to be fix. The bullshit people they send over to fix things do horrible ass work. Do yourself a favor and stay clear of this fraud company read more

This company has the worst costumer service I have ever experienced. If your looking for a house rest assured no one will ever call you back In a timely manner and when they do the house has already been rented. The sad thing is that they have a few decent home in nice neighborhoods. read more

Stay away! My lease was taken over by this horrible company. They seem to not know how to communicate or utilize common sense. It took me 6 weeks to get in touch with them, and its pick and chose with them, sometimes they respond, sometimes they don't. They avoid the tenants by not giving out the office address. What is mind blowing to me is the fact that the address on the balance due sheet (after moving out) is incorrect. They literally have people mailing checks for the balance due after moving out to an invalid address then sending the account to collections. They also mailed my balance due sheet to the wrong address. I saw too many times where ppl randomly got sent to collections & decided to follow up consistently, which ultimately paid off! Thank goodness I care about my credit. The Indianapolis office is located: 1637 W County Line Rd Greenwood, IN Posting this to help someone in the future! Very interested in filing case with the Office of Attorney General since bbb doesn't really do anything. read more

Based on previous reviews I was a bit worried at first but HavenBrook Homes assisted me with my repair issues immediately once notified. I am a new renter and I am totally satisfied thus far!!! read more

BEWARE...BEWARE.. This company takes your personal information and money . The company calls and tells you property is not available. Then tell you to find another house. If I wanted to apply for another home that is what o will do!!! You call corporate the market manager nice but doesn't follow-up! They tell you first come first serve but how can that be if home is not available!!! I would give a zero if I could 0000000. DO NOT give them anything!!!!! read more

Don't have no real maintenance team you will go days without water or anything call and don't hear from the nobody but people that work in the call center never a person who work for Havenbrook read more

We rented a home in Ft Lauderdale from Havnbrook Homes in August of 2017. Once we moved in we noticed there were multiple points of entry from previous break-ins. The house was not secure. Windows would not close fully, or lock in place. The front door had a metal plate covering over crowbar markings, which ironically would only give someone more leverage if they tried again. The backyard looked like a war zone. broken glass and ceramic debris from work being done on the house prior to our move in. When Irma hit we were left with two massive trees down in our backyard, one on top of our neighbor's fence, and one across the yard. We placed 13... that's right 13 service calls in a span of 9 weeks. No one showed up to the house, except for one man who wandered into the backyard while I was home, to take photos from his cell phone. I was expecting company coming into town for Thanksgiving and had to hire someone myself so I could still host, as Havenbrook was beyond unhelpful. Every person I spoke to in their Georgia headquarters gave me the same runaround, with no action. Recently, I had my home broken into and my front door knob removed in the process. Havenbrook said they would send an emergency service call the same day so I would not have to miss a day of work because I cant leave my home unsecured. It's been 4 days, with no service worker or professional response from Havenbrook after Ive called to follow up. Just the option to put in another service order. The woman we spoke to on the phone today was so condescendingly rude that I simply do not have the mental strength to give them. So here I write this. If you are considering renting a home from this company, be prepared to not only pay more than you should for an inadequate living space but also prepare yourself to take on expenses for a property that is not yours. I am a renter who feels like I own. I have no help, and it affects daily life. I honestly can't believe the reviews I read now, in regret -- after renting from this company. I only hope I can turn a few more people away so they don't waste their time. Havenbrook Homes has been an absolute nightmare. I look forward to the upcoming years where it will hopefully be out of business. read more

Never move into Havenbrook Homes!!! Biggest mistakes of my life! Havenbrook is the most unprofessional, unorganized, disrespectful thieves I have ever encountered. After I paid the deposit and first month's rent, the property managers did not want to provide me with the keys to the house. Havenbrook put the property back on the market as available. I had to wait two days before receiving the keys. Two months afterwards, Havenbrook stated I did not pay the deposit. I had to validate I paid. Havenbrook admitted they were robbed, and other tenants were affected as well. The first day in the house, I took pictures of damages throughout the house: foyer & hallway needed painting, flooring did not have adhesive, multiple cabinets did not have pullers, island not mounted to the floor, no door stoppers behind doors, cracks on flooring in front of fireplace. I contacted the sales agent & maintenance. He explained they were minor and not important. Once I moved out they charged me for the damages- that were present prior to me moving in! I was billed a trash can fee every three months. Havenbrook would NOT provide me with a trash can. Therefore, I emptied my own trash. Waste Connection stated the account was handled by Havenbrook. I finally received a trash can two months before moving out. Havenbrook still expected payment for the months prior & for May - I no longer reside there. There was always a discrepancy with my monthly rental amount. I had to visit the Havenbrook office to discuss with a manager. In October, I was no longer allowed to pay rent in the office. Due to the outstanding balances (for a trash can I did not possess) I received an Eviction Notice from Havenbrook. I visited the office and provided the manager handling my account a 60-day moving notification. In April, I requested a walk-thru and return the keys. I did not receive a response. So, I provided Havenbrook with my new address. Havenbrook manager called asking me to renew my lease. I explained again that I had moved. She demanded I pay for May's rent. She promised me they would keep my deposit based on the damages in the house (that were not my fault) & the May's rent due. They turned my file over to a collection agency by charging me an additional $1,000 for not cutting the front yard. The front yard is 10x15 (small)- in April, it was well groomed and in better condition compared to when I first moved in. It is not my fault Havenbrook is not on top of their job. I will sue. Havenbrook Homes is a Nightmare! Please do NOT live here! read more

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This company is absolutely terrible. You contact them over and over and never get a response. The property manager Michelle never wants to speak to you. Instead she sends the info over to Jessica the assistant for her to ignore every question or concerned asked. She doesn't help as we had very valid concerns through Covid-19! The pandemic that hit everyone! They respond with leave your key email when you move out. On top of that we cleaned the house from top to bottom and have a huge shampooer that we shampooer the whole house with clean and they want to charge us for damages and a clean. Let's not start on maintenance request we still haven't seen. Faucet doesn't work, door off the hedges, drawers falling off. BEWARE AND DO NOT RENT FROM THEM! read more

HavenBrook Homes ATL DO NOT MOVE WITH THESE PEOPLE!!!!! SAVE YOURSELF THE TURMOIL ! I have lived with Havenbrook Homes for 2 years now and the morale has gotten lower and lower every year.. If it isn't one this its the other with these folks. The operator I have spoken with has had the nastiest attitude every time we have spoken. She actually hung up on me TWICE!! My partner and I have been trying to reach out to property managers, operators, and just havenbrook homes, period, for months only to get the run around on why phone calls and emails have not been answered. We have had mold that they have yet to do anything about, and possibly a broken water tank that has increased my water bill tremendously! Signing my lease again with them was a HUGE mistake! They have been increasingly unorganized and never can give me an answer for anything!! PLEASE SAVE YOURSELF AND DO NOT MOVE WITH THESE PEOPLE!!! THEY ARE LITERALLY THE WORST PROPERTY HOME MANAGEMENT I'VE EVER ENCOUNTERED!!!!!!!!!!! read more

My experience has been awful, this company Havenbrooks, took over my lease after the first month of being in the house, I have been renting fir 2years. , I had a issue with the sewer bill, I had double paid, after they had taken over, I called to retrofy the issues, the office manager, very rude as to say you people, 2nd I paid the sewer bill, and was told thats your problem, while mind you if I pay on line there additional fees, as well as a processing fee, now its time to renew, Renew with no paint, no carpet clean, no outdoors repairs, yes I did seek legal advice, this is not fair I'm in Missouri, I know for a fact that they are over pricing. read more

This story begins 2 years ago. I first rented my home from MSR and very shortly after I moved in the property was taken over by HavenBrook Homes. I had notified the manager that the carpets in the house were reeking of cat urine and I was first told that the previous tenant didn't have animals. After having the carpets cleaned TWICE, once I paid out of pocket and another HavenBrook had them cleaned, the carpet contractor notified them that I needed new flooring. I let them know I am allergic to cats and that I would need to move if they couldn't get the situation taken care of. They replaced HALF of the carpet in the house. I have grey carpet now in the master bedroom and downstairs, brown carpet in the other three bedrooms, hallway and stairwell. To get that situation taken care of took months. Since then I have had leaks, siding call off the house and a ridiculous amount of algae growing on the home. I had to pay to have the house power washed, It took two Work-order requests and several weeks to have the siding fixed. During the pandemic I was sent an email by management that said that they would work with residents who needed to move out of their home early. When I requested a move out date 5 weeks early, I was told that I would need to pay a lease break fee and would lose my deposit. I even turned in a note from my doctors stating that I need to move early to get medical care elsewhere. Now it seems as though I can't even get someone to send a rental verification to a new company in the state I will be moving to. These people are a nightmare. read more

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Absolutely terrible property management company. Horrible realtor named Shirley wil promise to make updates amd improvements, but she will not show up yo do the final inspection with maintenance. Good luck getting them to fix anything. If they do make a repair and it's done by a contractor, then the work will be done cheaply and low quality. The property managers are no better. They are argumentative instead of responsive and really do not want to help you. Make sure the house is up to code because they won't. If I could give them less than 1 star rating, I would. read more

So far my experience has been terrible. They barely respond to work orders and when I moved in they had a water leak causing me to have a 1300 dollar water bill. I ended up paying all of it because they absolutely would not respond or help. The foundation is cracking and the fireplace is separating from the wall. During the bad storm this last winter, I had a sizable branch fall on the house. It was several weeks before they came to fix it and the whole it left in the roof. I do not feel safe in my home and their lack of response does not make it any better. During the pandemic I paid my rent early and still got this kind of service! I have recently emailed in my notice and tried to call 5 times to no answer. Let's see how this move out process goes! read more

Worst property management. Company ever, I have left 78 messages requesting anyone to call me back regarding issues and I have yet to get a call or email. Poor maintenance, poor service, poor communication, poor everything. The home I was renting flooded and they didn't sent anyone out for mold inspection or anything for over a month, I told them I was moving out and they let me and agreed to refund my full deposit, then they placed an eviction on my rental history and did not return my full deposit, only half. The insurance company even gave up on trying to reach them and just settled my claim. read more

Not reliable at all. Horrible staff that manages the Indiana area. They will create fake charges and charge you for them. They don't fix anything worst group of people. Also if you get Lindsay run she is no help horrible as well. read more

I'm going to make this very short into a point. Horrible company! Horrible customer service! Horrible maintenance team! Overpriced ! read more

This company is very unprofessional when it comes to maintenance requests. I have been calling all day today because both of my restrooms are leaking and the showers are clogged. They answer and say that they will send a report so they can take action but they never reach back. It is very frustrating to deal with them I do not live here for free therefore I deserve to be taken care of when it comes to maintenance promptly. If you guys rather not deal with things like this it's better not to rent from this company. I do not recommend them whatsoever. read more

They bought my lease signed with another agency TWO WEEKS after I signed it. Now the year is up and they are impossible to contact to cancel the lease. They are willlingly FRAUDulently ignoring messages and calls to report non-renewal to trap me into a month to month that's twice what my original lease was. Been calling, emailing, and every source of contact for a month but all I get are voicemails and no responses. read more

The staff at the Woodlands Office are angels in disguise. Renting a home can be a headache and sometimes unexpected financial situations come up. Your biggest worry is paying RENT on time. I must say changing my job was a great decision but an inconvenience to my bills due on the first of the month. The account manager for my property Tamiko Gonzales is very patient and understanding. If I could tell everyone my opinion of Havenbrook Homes... I would say contact the staff for the Houston area they make you feel like your more than just a late payment or another address in a book. Thanks ladies for taking care of my family and I. read more

If I could give them 0 stars I would! The communication is terrible! Was interested in a house for a month with this company and never got responses until after 3 weeks. Finally did the app and house stated unavailable because they had to clean, then get a notification someone else had applied before me and was accepted. The lies on top of lies when this company. The leasing agent did not even call to tell me or update me, I had to call her to find out all of this when she is the one who told me it was no pending apps on the house. They have no contact numbers, customer service and the mangement office is an outsourced company so basically the middle man for communication. They do not have direct numbers, just emails which they do not respond to. Save your money and time and lease with another company. read more

This renting company is awful. We moved in in February of 2020 and the dishwasher had standing water and dishes from the previous tenants. Our dishwasher still has not been fixed after multiple complaints and work orders being sent in. Our stove top only burns on high or off and has been this way since move in date. We also had a leak in our roof that they wouldn't fix until our ceiling caved in. To make things worse I had to spend my own money to fix our sink that started leaking over two weeks ago. And please if you are going to be a rental company, wash the cigarette smoke off the walls next time. I will not be renting from this company again and advise anyone looking to rent to stay away from this company. They will not take care of you. read more

This place is a terrible place to live! They take forever to fix any problems within the unit. The customer service line they provide you with, never transfers any information over but they'll lie and say they will. When you move out and they owe you a security deposit? They duck and dodge constantly until legal actions are taken! Run! read more

DO NOT RENT FROM THIS COMPANY! If you're looking to rent a home, don't rent from Havenbrook Homes! No matter how great of a deal it may seem, it'll bite you in the end. Sleep in your car until you can find another place, but do not rent from these people. They do half assed jobs when fixing things, and things will definitely need fixing. You'll never see your deposit. That's gone. I have never rented a place EVER that I didn't get my deposit back. read more

We didn't initially sign our lease with Havenbrook. They actually bought our lease from another company a few months after we had signed a two year agreement. The sump pump went out and the original company, MainStreet Renewal (who I also don't recommend) didn't take our basement flooding seriously enough to send someone to repair it. The carpets were disgusting from the original owner (pet odor imbedded in the carpets was revived with this rain water) and needed replacement. The transition happened during this time. One day we're dealing with MainStreet, the next it is Havenbrook. Work orders and our information didn't seem to translate over and we had to fight to get them to have someone replace the carpet in the basement after getting yet ANOTHER sump pump replaced because the first replacement was garbage. Fast forward 2 years, be end of our lease is upon us and they are trying to force THEIR company mandates on us that do not align with our lease agreement. Original company, MainStreet, gave us 30 days to give notice, then Havenbrook tried to pursue is into 60 or to renew. We talked then down to the thirty day notice as shown in our lease. MainStreet told us that part of their service was they always give each home a fresh coat of paint as needed so the next person doesn't need to worry about scuffs and marks. Our home was never repainted after the person (which was the original home owner). We didn't really care and we noted a ALL of this with our walk through report. Havenbrook decides that WE THE RENTERS need to paint the home. They tell us this TEN DAYS before our final day and said that it was "plenty of time" to get it done since they offered to provide the paint. I told them multiple times that 1. That is not part of our agreement and 2. Any scuffs or marks were from the original owner and never painted for US and 3. We have that logged inbourv move in paperwork and want to know if they even have it. Jessica Griffin (the Assistant Property Manager Office: 314-300-9157 ) has only argued that they are giving us a discount on the painting amount and will not confirm that they do or do not have the move in paperwork showing these damages as pre-existing. We rented a house with a bad paint job, a garbage deck that havenbrook painted with non-weather resistant paint, yards full of weeds, and no screen door on the back deck and that is exactly what they got back, but we were nice enough to leave them the screen door that WE bought. They kept a majority of our deposit to cover a number of fees that they felt were out fault. There are tons of minor issues resulting from either the lack of care from MainStreet or the original home owner. Please be aware of rental history on places like this and stay away from HAVENBROOK AND MAINSTREET RENEWAL read more

i am not sure how this company can engage in its criminal activity for so long. someone needs to file a class action suit. i was never sent a bill for the false charges they are stateing. then they turn me over to collections. ! what???? read more

This company is the absolute WORSE! DO NOT DO BUSINESS WITH THEM! I found a property for a friend through Havenbrook website and went to view it, but it was a completely different house than as advertised with the exception of the front of the house; the living room, kitchen, and backyard photos used to advertise the property were from other homes. Commercial misrepresentation is a type of FRAUD... The entire layout inside was a joke [see photo comparison]. To make matters worse, they keep the application fee even though they've openly committed fraud by enticing an applicant with fraud photos (fraud voids all contracts). I gave them a chance to make it right and give my friend a different property. They put my friend in cue as first applicant, and said that if she signs the lease before March 31, she'll get half rent off; this happened four days ago (March 25). I have contacted the agent multiple times throughout the week to view the property before my friend signs the lease agreement as anyone would, but the agent repeatedly says she hasn't been given the code to access the property... Keep in mind they offered a half-month off rent deal before March 31. Today is Friday March 29th, which means my friend will not be able to see the property to determine if she likes it in time to benefit from the move in special [possibly a pressure tactic used to force someone to sign a contract without viewing the property first] This company is terrible ... I mean look at these photos... read more

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I gave these guys a 1 only because it does NOT go any lower. I rented a house from them that flooded from a pipe burst. They not only ingored it and my calls for 24 hours but the property manager turned her phone off so that we would stop calling. So, if you see them as the property management group RUN!!!!! read more

AVOID these people they are the worst. I rented a house from them and they would cancel work order requests without even talking to us. The reps had a habbit of calling threshold guards as cosmetic especially when it tapers off the differnce in depth between the two flooring surfaces. The electrical box wasn't labeled and they still refused to fix that after the fire department ordered it. The furnace duct work was not up to code. read more

Worse company ever. Idk why they switched us from Main Street over to them . It seems like we can't ever get a hold of anyone in there . Multiple emails have been sent with no responses . Phone calls not answered ... nothing . But when it comes to money .. all of a sudden they know how to pick up a phone . I've never been the type to write a bad review but this company is just pathetic . I'm just waiting for these next few months to go by so i can get out of this house . One more thing, y'all needs get your shit together , that's all read more

The house was not kept up. I was assured when I did my walk through that things would be ready by move in date. On move in date they still had not completed most updates that needed to be done and They refused to replace carpets that had been stained. They also took more than half of our security deposit because we weren't able to do a walk through at the end of our stay and fix minor things that they had a problem with. They basically charged us for things not done before we even moved in. The property manager was awful For the Memphis homes read more

They wont fix the homes, whether they are in violation of the Texas Property Code or not. They have run down properties. They dont return phone calls. They have ONE email they never respond to. Their "contractors" are the cheapest guy they can rustle up in a beat up pick up who might or might not "show up" and thats THE ONLY person you will ever encounter from their company. Theyre clueless about what is happening in TX. Theyre in Georgia and they could care less what happens to their properties or tenants in TX. TREC complaints are the only way to get them to do anything. Theyll take your money and let the properties go downhill. They dont care about safety, water quality, mold, nothing. 9 months left on this lease and Im getting the h*** away from them. read more

Do not rent from here. They raise the rent and add additional fees. As well as not responding to work orders. HORRIBLE EXPERIENCE.. NEVER AGAIN. THIS IS A WARNING TO ALL!!!!! read more

Hands down the worst Property Management of all time. We haven't had flushing toilets in a week...we have called hourly trying to get someone to respond. They offered $100/night until they could get it fixed...well we live in Atlanta with a dog...that doesn't cover a safe stay in a dog friendly hotel. Please do not rent from them, even if the house looks great...they buy homes in horrible condition, fixed them up enough to get you in then ignore you when you have an unsanitary situation in your home. We have also had rats, a snake, broken drawers and doors off the hinges etc that we've had to fix ourselves because they JUST DON'T CARE. read more

Update #2 I finally just say forget it and paid the total amount Haven Brook Homes said I owed on February 8, 2019 because I called at least ten times and got no where. I received a call from Lindsey from HavenBrook saying that she was calling about my payment. Of course when I call her back she's unavailable. I really don't know why the phone call because the money is literally sitting in my account and has been. I was smart and saved my confirmation paged when I paid and will print out my bank statement in case they try to say my bank declined the transaction. I only have till the end of April then my lease is up...thank goodness. I've been reading review after review and the bad reviews definitely out numbered the good ones. This is an awful company!!! I'm definitely exploring my options to break this lease. I'm not even sure if any of this was legal. read more

I'd give negative 10^10 stars if I could. Word of advice, don't sign that lease with Havenbrook Homes. They are the very definition of slum lords. Havenbrook took over my lease from MSR just over a year and a half ago. First, I had to contact for 1.5 months to get my lease renewed. Contacted on 9/19 and they didn't have my lease finalized until 11/19. I contacted multiple times via phone and email with no response. Fast forward to 12/19, my garage door broke and my side door in the house had been broken since moving in. Contacted multiple times via portal, email, and, phone to fix broken garage, which the door was completely inoperable. My calls and emails completely ignored. The only way to get them to fix the door was to threaten to take them to court to withhold rent until fixed. It was fire hazard because it left us with one operable door in the entire house. It took them over 3 months to fix the garage door. The apartment is mold infested, causing us breathing difficulties, rashes, etc. Even our pets were sick with rashes and throwing up. Problem never fixed. The toilet leaked, causing $100 utility Bill's for water. Came out to 'fix' one, but problem persisted. The AC in summer didn't work and they didnt come out to fix it. Set at 65, and the temp inside was in the 80s. Problem never fixed. Couldn't access the back yard due to their gate being broken. Problem never fixed. Not to mention, their policy states they will not fix general maintenance issues, only emergencies (fire damage, major leaks, erc) due to COVID since Mar 2020, and is still in place as on Nov 2020. Flashforward to Oct 2020. We did NOT renew our lease, because these people want your money but refuse to take care of the property, and let it fall into despair. I moved out early on 10/28, with our lease ending on 11/20. We moved to FL, and planned to have a professional cleaning company go in to help clean due to my mother being disabled. They pushed us out on the 28th, stating they were going to go in to assess the property within 2 days of vacancy. I did not abandon the property or give them the right to do so, they took it upon themselves to do that. I was told by Sheby that my rent would be pro-rated for the 20 days of rent for Nov. Flashforward again to 11/1, the date our rent is due. No rent showing in out portal, so I emailed Shelby to see why the rent was not showing. She proceeded to tell me that as a past resident, that I have to bring the payment to their office or mail it to them. Never once in their move out instructions, lease agreement, or the multiple emails from her or the other reps after I notified them I would be moving out indicated this. I called to speak with her after receiving no answer to my email and she proceeded to belittle and berate me, that it was somehow my fault that I didnt pay the rent on 10/28 when I moved out, even though rent was not due until 11/1. She then threatened to hang up on me, stated I was playing games, and that the home was not "ours" but theirs so I did not have the right to tell her I still was considereda tenant until 11/20 when my lease was up. She wouldn't let me get in a word while continuing to argue with me, so I hung up on her. She then proceeded to lie in the email that it was 'ironic' that I accused her of threatening to hang up on me when I hung up on her. On and on she argued, until I told her to not contact me again because she wouldn't stop running her mouth. The representatives at this company are unprofessional and rude. They will take and take from you while offering nothing in return. Do yourself a favor and rent elsewhere. You'll save yourself a lot of time and stress. This company and it's representatives are complete garbage. read more

This week I did two viewings for houses that looked great on zillow. I was beyond disgusted when we arrived. First off, the guy from Havenbrook was rude - how dare I ask a question about a washer and dryer. Both homes were filthy. Like balls of human hair, a pile of the remenants from someone's sunflower seed snack and even a broken window with glass all over the carpet. At the second home I was so grossed out I couldn't even finish the tour upstairs. Literally one hour of cleaning would have made a difference, but clearly they are the laziest landlords around. Havenbrook should not be allowed to be in the rental property based on the homes we saw. Hard pass. read more

I been calling them about a noises in my ceiling or walls and maintenance came out and said nothing he can do. So i call landlord and she claim someone will be out. It's been 3 weeks and nothing. I can't sleep because the noises is worst at night from the running in the walls and scratching. It so bad read more

Our sewer backed up and we made numerous attempts and work orders after two weeks we had to pay for the repairs and then fight for a deduction in rent. Back yard wen in repaired for over a month. Garage door would not close and again took several days to get someone to respond. Moved out early due to issues and continued to pay the rent. At the end of contract was told we would get a full refund. That was October 2021. As of March 2022 still no response from them. They now tell us they no longer have the property and we need to talk to the new management. Would give negative star if possible. read more