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Great entertainer! So humble, gratious to everyone for filling Ford Field! I sat in section 112, row 37. Great show! Great seats! Exce First time six women in row 38, seat 14/13/12/11/10/9, and another pair of woman further down who i turned to ask if their seats were free ? I paused to say they were so rude & disrespectful to continue talking loudly through the entire concert. I wish they had a seat ban!
This venue is well kept, clean and offers many convenient food and beverage stations. The view from anywhere is excellent. We would have liked to see our photo go up on the board, but that didn't happen. Otherwise everything met or exceeded our expectations for an awesome Lions pre-season game!
Convenient parking. Nice Venue. Went to an event that partnered with the American heart Association to empower the community to learn CPR.
Attented the foo fighters concerts and it was awesome, from the entrance to the exit, food, bathrooms, everything was top notch. Highly recommended.
Very nice venue with great seats anywhere you choose! Been here for a few concerts and a couple Lions game (one being in a suite which was an amazing experience in itself!). The stadium packs a lot of people and depending on the event, it can get really busy so get their early! Plenty of parking nearby, but my opinion is to choose somewhere else that isn't a Ford Field lot or garage. They're either full pretty early, especially for tailgaters at a game, or they're simply very expensive. Food and drink throughout the venue is very good. As you can expect, the prices are high but that's the nature of going to an arena/stadium. For a Lions game, they do some fun tents and other activities in the street in front of the arena that faces Comerica Park.
Why 4 stars? Because there were some really unique and cool aspects to this stadium. --- --- --- I don't think there are more unique concourses in sports than Ford Field - at least not the stadiums I've been to. They do a really great job at making most of them not feel like you're just in another generic sports venue. The cobblestone streets are probably the leading factor, but there's just a lot going on here that says you're definitely in Ford Field and nowhere else. The negative about the concourses? They are far too small for the sellout crowds the Lions have. I love to walk the entire lower and upper concourse in a new stadium I'm visiting so that I can see everything. Here, this took me the better part of an hour just because I was essentially in rush hour traffic the whole time. Within the actual game itself, it's kind of a nice change of pace that there isn't an emcee screaming in your face about t-shirt tosses and other in-game entertainment during every whistle. That's a thing in live sports these days, but I actually liked the very throw back feel here. The fans knew to be pin-drop quiet durinng the Lions possessions and insanely loud when the defense was on the field. I appreciated that aspect too. Other than the concourses being way too narrow, this was a great place to watch a game.
Chris Brown and Usher Concert. Fantastic seats, great food and drinks. Amazing stage props, lightning, and superior sound system. Best conert venue for downtown Detroit.
They make you feel welcome as soon as you enter the building. Many restaurant options. Parking is tough. Don't wing it. The parking structure is $60. I suggest parking further away (financial district), taking the people mover to the station closest to Ford Field.
Happy Holidays! First time at Ford Field. It was clean and service was even better! Excited to return again!
I'm a season ticket holder so I've been going to all the Lions games. I've also come here for other events over the years. I like Ford Field, but don't love it. It's a great venue, but it has a few flaws. Since the Lions sell out all the games now, it is a madhouse inside. You can barely move through the concourse to get around. And in a twist, the lines for the men's bathrooms are seriously OUT OF CONTROL. They are sometimes 75 deep, not kidding. That's on the 2nd level, 1st level is better. Not sure if they didn't plan for maximum capacity when they built it, but it is busting at the seams on game day. Food and drinks are of course overpriced, but there are plenty of options. Again, the lines can be pretty bad. So you either just go with it, or eat and drink before you get here. But you're there for 4 hours, so eventually you break down and buy something. I love the 'drink of the game' on gameday, so you know I'm always getting one of those. Getting in has been smoother this year it seems, they move you along pretty quickly with not a lot of waiting outside. Seats are comfortable, I'm in section 240, I'm happy with my view even if it's not a sideline seat or club seats. I couldn't afford them anyways. Parking is a nightmare. You can pre buy your parking on Parkwhiz or take your chances driving around looking for something. NOT recommended. You'll pay more and be farther away. Expect to pay anywhere from $25 - $100 (as you get closer). So - wear good shoes because you'll be walking pretty far. I can't compare to other urban stadiums, but I enjoy coming here for the games.
What a great venue. The seating is all good. The food is what you expect but plentiful. Drinks every where. This was an energetic environment and a fun time for all.
When you think of the motor city, you think Detroit. What a beautiful city. What is equally beautiful is "Ford Field" home of the Detroit Lions. This visit however was like no other. I met so many NFL family's. Let me take it from the top, outside of the stadium I ran into the parent of James Hudson, they were really nice and took photo with us. It was incredible. Outside the stadium there is a lot to do. Games and bars all over. It was worth going early. Inside at our seats I noticed a guy very familiar. May brother walked over and asked was he Joe Ruback. He said yes and we got photos. In case you don't know, he is the second most famous Giants fan. I of course am first, and he mingles with all the team. Next, I saw a gentleman who looked like Abdul Carter's father. So we asked, and yes it was. We got photos with him. This was turning out to be awesome. Last these group of woman sat behind us. It turns out, I was wearing her son's jersey.It turned out to be Brian Burns mom. Once people found out, they rushed for photos so she didn't want to take any more. But I took a photo of her. This was the best day, well, we lost, but it was still great! I really enjoyed "Ford Field."
It's an okay place to see a football game, I've been here for a couple of bowl games so it wasn't anywhere near sold out. The sound system is hearing damaging loud, so I suggest hearing protection. There's no radio reception and the scoreboard, while very sharp and visible at either endzone, didn't give any useful statistics except once at the end of the second quarter. Security on the way in is slow and poorly organized. They check tickets first, those ushers aren't very helpful, it's a DIY process to get your phone screen scanned by a machine that doesn't readily fit the whole phone screen. Make sure you have your tickets up on the screen just before you get in the door. Then the security scan machines are BEFORE the two security personnel and the one supervisor, so you walk through all your metal in pockets and then set off the machine, go back after putting your phone into the tray being held by one security person, then when the machine goes off again, put the rest of your metal into the tray, walk back through, and then the security person holding the tray awkardly gives you back your belongings one at a time while people behind you glare at you for being a slow old man with a lot of keys. Why not put the one with the tray BEFORE the scanner? On a very serious note, if someone has a gun, you don't want to keep having them walk through the scanner. You want to deny them entry immediately. Not a good system. They did catch my empty plastic bag (it was raining, I wanted it to protect my purple tophat for the walk back to the hotel) and made me discard it. I was walking with a cane that day, they made me hobble back out and through the scanner to make sure it wasn't the cane causing the beeps. Kind of mean, but hey, they are going to get old one day and then they might realize how humiliating it is to treat people who have difficulty walking like that. Concession lines are long at half time, it's a football stadium, they really need to be ready for the surges at the restrooms and concessions in the middle of the game. Seats are a little tight, during Winter when everyone has big coats, it feels even more cramped. I wanted to get a souvenir, maybe a game day shirt or a Lions sweatshirt but the merchandise store isn't in an obvious place near the main entrance, and I couldn't find a worker to direct me at the end of the game when they got real scarce so I decided to get my souvenir at Meijer's Thrifty Acres on the way back. The location is great, right across from Tiger Stadium, there are a number of hotels within an easy walk, and after the game Lafayette Coney Dogs is a 9 minute walk.
I attended the Usher and Chris Brown concert at Ford Field and had an amazing time overall. The venue was well organized, and despite the large crowd, entry and other lines moved smoothly. My only criticism is that some of the concession stands had extremely long wait times. The biggest issue, however, was that someone vomited on the seat directly behind us during the concert. Several people notified staff, but unfortunately, no one came to clean it up. We had to sit through the remainder of the concert with the smell of vomit around us, which really took away from an otherwise great experience. I was very disappointed with how that situation was handled, especially since it was a sanitation issue. Because there were many positive aspects to our visit, I'm giving 3 stars, but I hope the venue improves its response to situations like this in the future. read more
Ford Field is a beautiful building! I'm so happy to see my city with a great football stadium. I went to see Chris Brown & Usher at Ford Field. This was my first time at this venue. The stadium is HUGE. It was very clean throughout even the restrooms. There are plenty of bars, restaurants, concession stands and mini retail outlets . Our section had a problem with a young lady who was acting rudely. The Security Team and the Police handled it quickly. She was escorted out and I appreciated how quick and efficiently the issue was resolved. The seats and concert were great. I enjoyed the sound system and the arena. It is my hometown and I loved all the Lions memorabilia. The cocktails are OVERPRICED and of course parking is expensive. I would definitely attend another concert or go to a football game here. read more
Great entertainer! So humble, gratious to everyone for filling Ford Field! I sat in section 112, row 37. Great show! Great seats! Exce First time six women in row 38, seat 14/13/12/11/10/9, and another pair of woman further down who i turned to ask if their seats were free ? I paused to say they were so rude & disrespectful to continue talking loudly through the entire concert. I wish they had a seat ban! read more
1 month ago
This venue is well kept, clean and offers many convenient food and beverage stations. The view from anywhere is excellent. We would have liked to see our photo go up on the board, but that didn't happen. Otherwise everything met or exceeded our expectations for an awesome Lions pre-season game! read more
2 months ago
Attented the foo fighters concerts and it was awesome, from the entrance to the exit, food, bathrooms, everything was top notch. Highly recommended. read more
Very nice venue with great seats anywhere you choose! Been here for a few concerts and a couple Lions game (one being in a suite which was an amazing experience in itself!). The stadium packs a lot of people and depending on the event, it can get really busy so get their early! Plenty of parking nearby, but my opinion is to choose somewhere else that isn't a Ford Field lot or garage. They're either full pretty early, especially for tailgaters at a game, or they're simply very expensive. Food and drink throughout the venue is very good. As you can expect, the prices are high but that's the nature of going to an arena/stadium. For a Lions game, they do some fun tents and other activities in the street in front of the arena that faces Comerica Park. read more
Why 4 stars? Because there were some really unique and cool aspects to this stadium. --- --- --- I don't think there are more unique concourses in sports than Ford Field - at least not the stadiums I've been to. They do a really great job at making most of them not feel like you're just in another generic sports venue. The cobblestone streets are probably the leading factor, but there's just a lot going on here that says you're definitely in Ford Field and nowhere else. The negative about the concourses? They are far too small for the sellout crowds the Lions have. I love to walk the entire lower and upper concourse in a new stadium I'm visiting so that I can see everything. Here, this took me the better part of an hour just because I was essentially in rush hour traffic the whole time. Within the actual game itself, it's kind of a nice change of pace that there isn't an emcee screaming in your face about t-shirt tosses and other in-game entertainment during every whistle. That's a thing in live sports these days, but I actually liked the very throw back feel here. The fans knew to be pin-drop quiet durinng the Lions possessions and insanely loud when the defense was on the field. I appreciated that aspect too. Other than the concourses being way too narrow, this was a great place to watch a game. read more
3 months ago
Chris Brown and Usher Concert. Fantastic seats, great food and drinks. Amazing stage props, lightning, and superior sound system. Best conert venue for downtown Detroit. read more
They make you feel welcome as soon as you enter the building. Many restaurant options. Parking is tough. Don't wing it. The parking structure is $60. I suggest parking further away (financial district), taking the people mover to the station closest to Ford Field. read more
2 months ago
I'm a season ticket holder so I've been going to all the Lions games. I've also come here for other events over the years. I like Ford Field, but don't love it. It's a great venue, but it has a few flaws. Since the Lions sell out all the games now, it is a madhouse inside. You can barely move through the concourse to get around. And in a twist, the lines for the men's bathrooms are seriously OUT OF CONTROL. They are sometimes 75 deep, not kidding. That's on the 2nd level, 1st level is better. Not sure if they didn't plan for maximum capacity when they built it, but it is busting at the seams on game day. Food and drinks are of course overpriced, but there are plenty of options. Again, the lines can be pretty bad. So you either just go with it, or eat and drink before you get here. But you're there for 4 hours, so eventually you break down and buy something. I love the 'drink of the game' on gameday, so you know I'm always getting one of those. Getting in has been smoother this year it seems, they move you along pretty quickly with not a lot of waiting outside. Seats are comfortable, I'm in section 240, I'm happy with my view even if it's not a sideline seat or club seats. I couldn't afford them anyways. Parking is a nightmare. You can pre buy your parking on Parkwhiz or take your chances driving around looking for something. NOT recommended. You'll pay more and be farther away. Expect to pay anywhere from $25 - $100 (as you get closer). So - wear good shoes because you'll be walking pretty far. I can't compare to other urban stadiums, but I enjoy coming here for the games. read more
When you think of the motor city, you think Detroit. What a beautiful city. What is equally beautiful is "Ford Field" home of the Detroit Lions. This visit however was like no other. I met so many NFL family's. Let me take it from the top, outside of the stadium I ran into the parent of James Hudson, they were really nice and took photo with us. It was incredible. Outside the stadium there is a lot to do. Games and bars all over. It was worth going early. Inside at our seats I noticed a guy very familiar. May brother walked over and asked was he Joe Ruback. He said yes and we got photos. In case you don't know, he is the second most famous Giants fan. I of course am first, and he mingles with all the team. Next, I saw a gentleman who looked like Abdul Carter's father. So we asked, and yes it was. We got photos with him. This was turning out to be awesome. Last these group of woman sat behind us. It turns out, I was wearing her son's jersey.It turned out to be Brian Burns mom. Once people found out, they rushed for photos so she didn't want to take any more. But I took a photo of her. This was the best day, well, we lost, but it was still great! I really enjoyed "Ford Field." read more
It's an okay place to see a football game, I've been here for a couple of bowl games so it wasn't anywhere near sold out. The sound system is hearing damaging loud, so I suggest hearing protection. There's no radio reception and the scoreboard, while very sharp and visible at either endzone, didn't give any useful statistics except once at the end of the second quarter. Security on the way in is slow and poorly organized. They check tickets first, those ushers aren't very helpful, it's a DIY process to get your phone screen scanned by a machine that doesn't readily fit the whole phone screen. Make sure you have your tickets up on the screen just before you get in the door. Then the security scan machines are BEFORE the two security personnel and the one supervisor, so you walk through all your metal in pockets and then set off the machine, go back after putting your phone into the tray being held by one security person, then when the machine goes off again, put the rest of your metal into the tray, walk back through, and then the security person holding the tray awkardly gives you back your belongings one at a time while people behind you glare at you for being a slow old man with a lot of keys. Why not put the one with the tray BEFORE the scanner? On a very serious note, if someone has a gun, you don't want to keep having them walk through the scanner. You want to deny them entry immediately. Not a good system. They did catch my empty plastic bag (it was raining, I wanted it to protect my purple tophat for the walk back to the hotel) and made me discard it. I was walking with a cane that day, they made me hobble back out and through the scanner to make sure it wasn't the cane causing the beeps. Kind of mean, but hey, they are going to get old one day and then they might realize how humiliating it is to treat people who have difficulty walking like that. Concession lines are long at half time, it's a football stadium, they really need to be ready for the surges at the restrooms and concessions in the middle of the game. Seats are a little tight, during Winter when everyone has big coats, it feels even more cramped. I wanted to get a souvenir, maybe a game day shirt or a Lions sweatshirt but the merchandise store isn't in an obvious place near the main entrance, and I couldn't find a worker to direct me at the end of the game when they got real scarce so I decided to get my souvenir at Meijer's Thrifty Acres on the way back. The location is great, right across from Tiger Stadium, there are a number of hotels within an easy walk, and after the game Lafayette Coney Dogs is a 9 minute walk. read more
Attended Chris Brown Breezy Bowl 20th Anniversary Stadium Tour. Entry was very well organized and the staff was friendly and helpful. Signage prominently displayed to guide visitors. There was a variety of food and beverage options. Club Seats has a food court, lots of seating areas and restrooms. There was staff present to guide us through the merchandise line which was split into two directions to move us faster. The sound was great and club seats are very comfortable! Overall a great experience! read more
1 year ago
Big stadium the concert was great and the sound system was very spectacular . The fireworks were on point and post malone, jelly roll did their thing. read more
Ford Field is such a great place to experience a Lions game. It gets SO loud and the fans are always so excited. I've been there for several Lions games now and most recently for the last preseason game against the Steelers. The atmosphere was just as electric as it is during the regular season. I received an email before the game with arrival time info, which was helpful as we didn't want to miss kickoff. We had time to get food before we got to our seats, but prepare for delays especially if you're driving in the area. (Sidenote: One great thing about Ford Field/Detroit in general on game and event days is that they are so good about directing traffic, which really helps with congestion.) There are lots of options for food and beverages inside Ford Field, and even though it's not as shiny and new as other places, it's still clean and comfortable. I don't think there's really a bad seat in the arena and they offer standing room only tickets that are usually a bit cheaper. I'm so excited for this season - GO LIONS!!!!!!! read more
10 months ago
went here to see a lions preseason game and our experience was great! all staff was very friendly and helpful, as we had a bit of a challenge finding our seats, and food was great too. my only complaint is the barriers with parking when there are larger events. Despite this, we will continue to go back! read more
I have been here for wonderful football games. Really good stadium, and lot of great food options. Could have some more vegan options. I do like that the security here is really good, they really keep the audience under control. You can feel very safe attending an event here. read more
1 year ago
Parking is expensive but the facility is very nice and there are plenty of restrooms. We went downtown on a Sunday afternoon for monster jam, and it was a blast and you could tell the employees worked their tails off read more
Great time at the Lions game tonight! Great seats from StubHub. I appreciated the email from the Lions organization that was sent to me ahead of time, recommending coming early to avoid long wait times. The game stated at 8:15pm. I arrived at 7pm and it was easy breezy. Plenty of entrances and security moves quickly. You'll need to bring a clear bag for your belongings, no larger than 12x6x12. Very nice stadium. It's huge, but every seat seems like a great seat. Lots of fun entertainment in between quarters and time outs. There is such a fun vibe and a lot of energy. Bathrooms are plentiful and clean, and lots of food and beverage options. Many parking options around downtown. Downtown is very walkable so I recommend parking further way to save money and enjoy the walk Go Lions! read more
Been here twice now. Last time was 18 or so years ago when it first opened. Such a cool venue. This place still feels brand new. Went to the Quick Lane Bowl game on day after Christmas. We had a blast. Beer prices were crazy but I expected that. Overall a very classy stadium. read more
We came to Ford Field for a college bowl game. There is tons of parking around the field and it's an easy walk from any of them. Getting in was easy and efficient. The stadium itself is beautiful. It's well laid out. Lots of food options at affordable pricing. I really liked the grab and go drink options. That was nice and the self-checkout worked great. Our seats were in the end zone and great. Great views all the way down the field. I really liked the brick area of the stadium that I'm sure is to resemble downtown Detroit. It was pretty and had a lot of great food options that seemed local. I also appreciate that they had vegan and gluten-free options. They were listed on the website too, which made it super easy to find. Overall we had a good experience. read more
I'm here at the Detroit Supercross 2024 and have a few observations to share. The vibe is always cool. I've been here many times in regular seats and in their suites. People who work the events ways seem to be happy and courteous. Food and drinks are absurdly over priced. Good quality but very expensive. I don't know how families can affotd professional events any more. The layout is easy to find your way around. Signs are everywhere. Seats are the usual baseball stadium style. Cramped even for a small person. Suite seats are the way to go if you're lucky enough to score some. Climate control is decent for motorccyles indoors. Air quality can be a bit smoggy after the bikes have been running a while which could pose issues for anyone sensitive to smoggy air. Sound system is much better than some of the more aged facilities still around. Restrooms are the usual public facilities, needing to be tidied up a bit more because well, let's face it, people are slobs. Parking in the general are is plenty but plan on forking out around $65 or more if you want to park in the closer lots. Use the parking app called Park Whiz which has excellent customer service and a great cancellation policy. Add some time to account for downtown traffic on the side streets in Detroit. Most of all, preare to enjoy the venue and the events at Ford Field! read more
1 year ago
I groove on down to Ford Field with Nick. We are going to see The Weeknd it will be sick. We go through security and the detectors don't beep. Damone gives us black wristbands they don't feel cheap. Nick gets a fruity alcoholic beverage and I get Coke zero. A hot Latina walks by and I say, "yo quiero" The Weeknds fans are dressed sharply and sexy. Everyone here is so beautiful and no one looks messy. We find our way to section 124, seats 9 and 10. We flop our asses on the seats and feel quite zen. Four beautiful women sit next to us on my left. I introduce myself to Cleo, she has black hair and zest. Nick gets up to go take a wizz and the music's playing loud. The ladies next to me take a selfie and are proud. A black woman with silver hoop earrings sits front of me. I introduce myself. She is from Charlotte and not messy. She's classy with style and has purpose in life. She went into sports and put behind all her strife. Her name is LaShonda but she goes by Shonnie. She came on a plane and smelled like Armani. The Weeknd comes out and the crowd begins to roar. He's wearing a pretty black sparkly garment I haven't seen before. He begins to sing and the lights are dancing blue, red and white. I feel the bass beat in my body and the lights are bright. His production value is the best I've seen in a while. The crowds energy rolls like thunder and flows like the Nile. Starboy comes on and I'm dancing from my soul. I feel connected to the music and I lose control. I'm grooving hard and Nick's recording me. I'm so blessed with what God's awarding me. My face started to go numb and the next song started to play. It was "Can't Feel My Face" and I began to pray. I asked God to bring more music like this my way. I pulled out my phone to capture some of this beauty. I was still singing, dancing and shaking my booty. The crowd is vibing so high and singing their hearts out. I'm waving my other arm to the music and it's groove. If you're looking for a great night out I'd say Ovidio approves. I put my phone away to enjoy the rest of this magical show. The Weeknd moved on the stage with empirical glow. Ford Field is a special place in Detroit's community. I love how the power of music can bring unity. Thank you to all the souls that coordinated this production. It brought love, joy, soul and meaning through its conduction. read more
Well, another NFL stadium to check off the list. This one in the motor city known as Ford Field in downtown Detroit where the Lions matched up against the Dolphins before Halloween. Say what you want about the team; yes the Lions are lovable losers and fans have pretty much given up hope with all their poor performances, bad coaching, and incompetent front offices. However this new regime led by GM Brad Holmes and HC Dan Campbell are doing what they can to right the ship and it seems to catch on as the fanbase was quite loud, supportive, and enthusiastic about this version of the Lions. And I was impressed with their performance in the 1st half as they got the win..... if the game had ended after the 1st half. 2nd half was more about the Dolphins and their entertaining offense of Tua Fast Tua Furious making a comeback and snatching the win. Ahh, enough about the game recap; the stadium itself. Well it's quite clean, pleasant spacing, and plenty of leg room with the seats (a welcome aspect considering my tightness at Little Caesars Arena). Restrooms were clean for an NFL game, something we take for granted but should appreciate. That's for the men's restrooms; the women's restrooms looked clean as well although I saw a woman come out with her hands held in the air palms down with a disgusted look on her face. Biohazard coming through? (Shrug). Also lots of concessions and drink areas for people to get their grub and thirst on. Beer is priced a bit cheaper than other stadiums which is probably a good thing since the Lions over the years have turned fans into alcoholics. Our seats were Section 128, Row 28; priced around $260 a piece; a hefty price for a hosting team with a losing record (maybe I was inebriated upon purchasing them) but nevertheless, I enjoyed the game day experience with my pops. I wouldn't mind attending a game or event here again; maybe the Lions will be a playoff contender by then. Look out for the Lions, they are on their way up! read more
1 year ago
9 months ago
3 years ago
Rams vs Lions wildcard game was one for the ages! My son and I were sat next to some awesome, fun, wild season ticket holders. We had a bunch of Rams fans behind us and the whole game was a blast, albeit a bit "butt clenching" towards the end! I will never forget the joy my son had when we won and were walking back to the car. We are looking forward to Monster Jam next weekend! Great venue. Not a bad seat in the entire place. read more
I am a bit behind writing this review...Came for The Rolling Stones concert. Given this is a review of Ford Field, and not the concert... I give it three stars. If it were for the concert I'd give it five. Mick Jagger sure has moves at his age! However, reviewing the venue... I really wish they had required people to wear a mask. Hopefully this didn't turn into a super spreader event. I wore my mask the entire time, but very few people did. What else can you say about a venue like this? They've got bathrooms, and overpriced food, just like you'd find it any other similar venue. read more
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More info about Ford Field
2000 Brush St
Detroit, MI 48226
Downtown Detroit
Directions
(313) 262-2000
Call Now
Visit Website
https://www.fordfield.com
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Ask the Community - Ford Field
What does seating term "ADA" represent in section 107?
Americans with Disabilities Act
Best place to park to go north after and event?
Jan, I would recommend you park in a lot off of Woodward Ave. This will allow you to head North after the game/ concert / event at Ford Field. If you park in any of the Downtown Lots it may be more difficult to head North using I-75, etc.
I am wondering how are the seats? are they comfortable for plus size people?
The seats are very small with little leg room
Review Highlights - Ford Field
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17 reviews that are not currently recommended
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