Appalling. They ruined my friend's birthday dinner. They (management on duty the night of 01/14/17) came up with a $3 per slice cake cutting policy ( not in writing or anywhere on their website) once we asked to have HER cake cut, even when we offered to cut the cake ourselves. The birthday event was planned weeks in advance and a "cake cutting fee" was never mentioned prior to her arrival nor when she arrived with the cake and they offered to store it in the refrigerator as a courtesy ( that's when the fee should have been announced). The server seems to not beware of the fee as it was never mentioned. They sent a black man out, think his name was Dexter to inform us of the policy, where he later said I have a boss and yall have a boss so..... Once Dexter said they couldn't show us their policy in writing I need to leave. I felt we were treated in such an appalling manner because it was a table of Black females. I don't know what type of "yes" policy they incorporate because we were not accommodated and basically rushed out of the restaurant (where a police officer was conveniently waiting) by Jennifer who later got into a verbal argument with one of the other guest calling her a "Bitch" and told guest not to return to the restaurant as they had our photo's on file. The interactions once the request was made to have the cake cut was very shady and unprofessional. Wow what a night............. smh read more

What's happened to Durham?? When I moved there in the 1900's there was a Steak and Eggs in downtown and Pan Pan Diner, Nikos and Neo-China. Now Durham looks almost too hot for love. The Counting House is this ultra MAJA hotel in downtown that looks very Empire/Stockholm. It used to be the old Sun Trust building and now there are purple lights glowing from hallways up above and the bathroom door frosts when you lock it so no one can see you Pee and there is art everywhere. The lounge/restaurant was like a visit to Hotel Q in Berlin, a very modern and exciting place where women swirled by like whirling Jo Jo's. We had great apps starting with the cheese/meat plate and Asparagus with tiny squares of melon. The Faro and puffed Barley was better than David Beckham's pre-nectar. Even the Beet salad which sounded so not worth eating melted in your mouth. Everything was beyond FABU. When I first looked at the menu I was upset because everything sounded as if they were trying to be too original to the point of displeasure. But I was very pleased and left feeling euphoric. Great place to gather with friends and laugh, look and love and the service is first class. read more

Easter Brunch. Limited menu. No gluten-free options. Awkward service interaction. "What salad dressings do you have? I'm not sure." What? How do you not know your dressings? Sous vide chicken on Romaine salad was a little too pink on the inside, even for sous vide. Indications that the kitchen new this and tried to broil it a little (not enough) to bring it up to temperature. Limp fruit salad. Icing on the cake: the 90 health rating. Really? If you can't keep your rating consistently above 95, then you shouldn't be in the business. Previous dinner experience last year with a large group was basically the same. Nice ingredients, poorly done. Overcooked. Undercooked. Oddly seasoned. One of the denizens of the chronically overrated/overhyped Durham restaurant scene. read more

What a cool place!! My girlfriends and I have a monthly girls dinner and this month we all ventured out to Durham. We met at Counting House for pre-dinner drinks. When we walked in there was immediately really cool things to look at and nice couched to sit on and mingle. We grabbed one of the u-shaped couches and ordered Moscow Mules. It was my favorite Moscow Mule I had ever had (and I have had a decent amount). They make their own ginger beer in house and it is a rosey pink color. After paying for our drinks we were free to roam around and see what the museum had to offer. There are 3 floors (I think) with things to see. My favorite was the vault in the basement. There are couches to sit down there and you can explore the old bank vault which is really cool. The other really awesome thing, as weird as it sounds, is the bathroom! The bathrooms are clear glass until you turn the lock when in an instance they become opaque. It is really awesome! Lastly, we didn't get food but I definitely want to come back and try it because it looked very good with many happy diners! read more

I'd heard about this restaurant from two independent sources, mostly with enthusiasm about the art, not the food. This should have tipped me off, but the menu was intriguing so I chose Counting House for lunch with friends, foodies from San Francisco just here for the weekend. Well, now I see why my sources praised the art. This was the most disappointing meal I have had in a high-end restaurant in recent memory. Because so many of the menu items were creative and enticing, we decided to share a number of small plates: a mussels dish with sumac soda crackers, a grilled cauliflower with pickled peppers in a lemon ginger sauce, beets tartare with a cashew sauce, and a romaine salad with parmesan and green goddess dressing. All dishes were remarkably bland, so much so that we, who would have normally eaten every morsel, left at least half of the food on the serving dishes. The pickled peppers which we had requested on the side were omitted entirely and, for purposes of this review, I had to really comb my memory to even recall what the sauce on the cauliflower was alleged to have contained. The green goddess dressing was good--when one could find it on the large chunks of nearly bare romaine (we had to ask the server to bring more dressing--and the dressing was supposed to be the main event in this otherwise rather flavorless salad). Somehow even the parmesan tasted bland, like those plastic packages of preshredded parmesan that one buys at the supermarket. The capper was the sumac soda crackers: the crackers seemed to be simply pulled from a box of Food Lion saltines, with a dusting of reddish-brown powder of indiscernible flavor. The only moderately successful part of the meal was an entree one of us ordered, lamb and eggs, with a nice blending of middle eastern spices, very poorly described by our server who could not list, even when asked for more information, the individual spices. We are a group with powerful sweet "teeth" and had been looking forward to ordering dessert. We were so glad we waited until our sampling of appetizers warned us off. Suffice it to say, we eagerly headed for Parlour's dependable offering of plain scoops of ice cream rather than incur any more losses at the hands of the Counting House! And a note on the service, which was deplorable. The server displayed a pathetic lack of basic knowledge of menu items (even such things as the type of peppers in the cauliflower, though it was a moot point because she forgot to bring them anyway). Worse, she was clueless about the presence of gluten in menu items, even after my friend informed the server that she has a serious case of celiac disease. The server seemed to be guessing at the answer until my friend asked her to query the kitchen staff. (This was subsequently followed by the appearance at our table of another woman, apparently the manager, who offered an appropriate and highly professional assurance that my friend's meal would be gluten-free and, further, that the kitchen would take precautions to avoid cross-contamination.) My two stars reflect the very polished and pleasant ambience, and--yes--that the place has amazing art! read more

Ate Saturday brunch there yesterday. Place was kind of empty since we went on the late side of lunch. I think our wait person was new but very nice and accomadating. But the food was just not good. One of us got Eggs Benedict and the eggs were raw, The rest of us ordered BLTs. The bread was burnt, the bacon tasted as if someone just pulled it out of the fridge-sort of raw tasting and cold and not crunchy. Overall a bad food experience. Plus they need to be able to get drinks more quickly from the bar as we had to wait even tho there was only one other table and no one in the bar. Will not be returning. read more

Went on a Tuesday -- very few patrons, but we had great service. Food is hit and miss as others have mentioned. Good place for apps and drinks... or dessert...great bourbon cocktail. read more

First of all, the atmosphere can't be beat! There is nothing on par in Durham or surrounding area and I can't speak more highly of the experience of eating a great meal surrounded by eclectic and conversation starting pieces. The food was pretty solid. We started with the meat and cheese plate (very good), followed by the shrimp and grits (excellent), the roasted squash was good, as was the brined pork. My favorite of the night was the sheep's milk cheesecake (divine!) and the cotton candy served at the end of the meal was really delightful. My only criticism was the cocktails...they sound good, are presented well, but just fall short in flavor and we tried about five of them. Alley 26 beats them hands down in this area... for now, but I'm hoping they will rotate cocktails and up the game as Durham really needs better options for good cocktails. After dinner we explored the art gallery and had a lot of fun discussing the various pieces. I was impressed the number of pieces, far more than what I've seen in other "boutique art hotels." Overall a great experience and I'm sure it will get better as the staff gets into its groove. read more

Can't recommend this restaurant. However it is a beautiful space thus Getting the two stars for "presentation" alone. My beef is this-- we ordered a dozen oysters specified the ones we wanted, etc. when the oysters were delivered to the table, the food runner had no idea which variety was which. We also questioned where a specific oyster variety was where in he replied they were out of that kind and they went ahead and replaced them with local nc oysters. It's May and I don't tend to eat oysters this far south in May and told them we needed to replace them with another kind. At this point the waitress stepped in, completely clueless, and said they were not going to do that. I found the way they handled that situation to be pretty terrible and the oysters were average at best. We won't be coming back. Disappointed! read more

We were very excited to learn that Durham was going to have a 21C hotel. We had visited another 21C in Louisville and loved the concept of a modern art gallery in a hotel. The Louisville exhibit was perhaps more interesting than the current Pop Stars, but I am certain there are more great things to come. The exhibit in the restaurant is great, though, and we enjoyed the creativity of the animal heads made from recycled materials, particularly the one made of shoes. Enough about art, although you must wander around even if just going for a drink. We had cocktails and an appetizer. Don't let previous reviews about $16 bourbon scare you. There are probably 15 cocktails for $10 and under. I had the Southern Side which was a perfect for a hot summer night- variation of a Mojito served with fresh rosemary. We had an appetizer from the bar menu- beets with cashew sauce and arugula. Delicious. A bit overpriced at $10 but tasty. Wandering through the three floors of art gallery, we met a lovely housekeeper (so sorry I forgot her name) who took us on a tour of the old bank vaults. She was so friendly, as was the doorman. I hope to return often- would be a great choice before or after DPAC . Oh and you must use the mezzanine floor restrooms. They are clear glass and you think you are going to be exposed, only to discover that when you lock the door, the glass becomes opaque. Magic! read more

I wanted very much to love this restaurant. It is beautiful, like dining in a cool modern art gallery. The aesthetics are perhaps the best in Durham. I was dining with a group, and we had looked forward to a night out at the hot new restaurant in town, and were excited to try as many items as possible. we are all foodies, so we ordered several small plates and some dinners to share. We started with the marinated mussels, roasted corn with a sriracha mayo, baby eggplant with farro, a melon/greens salad with vinagrette, and the plancha octopus. Main dishes were grilled flank steak, lamb gemelli, and the bigoli. Probably the best of the above was the roasted corn, but it was cooked unevenly. Some parts were charred (fine), but other parts weren't even coked at all (not fine). The sriracha mayo was fairly flavorless and did not add much to the dish. The marinated mussels were below average with a musty taste and served with 4 square saltine crackers (not nearly enough for the amount of the mussels). We didn't finish them due to the off taste, so I guess the lack of saltines didn't matter. The melon on the salad was sweet and delicious, but the dressing was so tart as to be almost inedible. The plancha octopus was the worst. Where I've had octopus elsewhere, it was much larger. At counting house, this dish used what looked like either baby octopus or even worse, squid. The marinade did not taste good and was over-salted, and the dish appeared to have burned in the pan, with the burned remnants served along with the dish for us to eat. That was disheartening, but at least we had the dinners to look forward to...or not. The grilled flank steaks were not cooked properly. One of my friends ordered hers cooked medium well (which is simply not a great plan in a good restaurant), but it came out bloody--not at all medium rare. Another flank steak was cooked a nice medium rare, but was tough and rather flavorless. The rub on the steak did not add much. The lamb gemelli had an off flavor and did not taste good. The bigoli was basically tasteless...which made it better than some of the other items, but not good. The service was not great. The server spilled a drink on my friend, and while he was helpful to try and clean it up, the restaurant didn't do anything at all to make it right. The portions of cotton candy served at the end were whimsical, but seemed to have been left sitting a while and were hard and not very cottony, and thus, better in theory than in practice. The best part of the meal was a couple of sides of fries that we ordered to share...they were really good. But, there are many places in Durham to get good fries. Overall, a very disappointing experience, not at all what we'd hoped for. I do not know if this is what the menu is shooting for, or if the kitchen was having an off night, but I'm kind of shocked that almost everything we ordered wasn't cooked properly, didn't taste good, and was simply not up to any kind of minimal standard. For the record, none of us are pretentious eaters. The food just was not very good, and the service was only marginally better. read more

Great vibe for modern spin on "contemporary Art Deco theme". Ordered the pork belly.. Came out with top layer hard as a cement block, could not cut through... They were very responsive and brought out a new one immediately which was cooked well. The pork belly was literally a cube on a plate with a thick layer of fat.. I'm used to a more sense serving to draw out the sweet taste.. The massive size put to much emphasis on the texture.. Cheese plate apps were great as well as the service. Overall, great place but not quite 5 star read more

Food is ok but WAY too much money for what you get. Dumplings are nothing close to what you find in the south- too doughy and eggy. Drinks are over-priced and small. A basic bottle of wine will cost you near $50. . Won't be back. read more

First let me start by saying the food is good but their business management process sucks. I work form home and stay very close so a lot of times this is my ideal place to go durning lunch. Each time I've been there there are discrepancies in the price they charge and their menu prices. Mind u it's only a dollar or 2 difference, but it's the principle of the matter. If this happened to every customer then they could make a considerable amount of money by the end of the day/shift, which I'm assuming they split in tips. One thing I would to people is be sure you check your itemized bill. I'm sure you will fine a charge that is inconsistent with your order! And they tried to make me look petty b/c I called them out on the discrepancy! Note to las palmas...charge people the price on your menu and stop nickel and dimeing your customers trying to get rich! I will not be going back, even though I do like their food! read more

6 of us arrived at 6:10 for a 6:15 reservation and told the restaurant that we were going to an 8:00 show at DPAC and our food came out at 7:40 so needless to say we didn't have time to enjoy our meals. Some of the dishes were cold while a burger that was supposed to be medium rare came out well done. Counting House is supposed to be a quality upscale restaurant but they need to get their act together. read more

The Brussels sprouts were a religious experience. I sent hugs and kisses to the chef via our server they were so good. No kidding - try them and you'll see! I had the mushroom bigoli-also a top shelf experience. My husband had the braised beef - so tender and tasty, no knife was necessary. Portions were just right, and room for dessert - the sweet potato cake with bourbon sauce/icing - not too sweet, just perfect. The ginger ice cream and the crumbles-oh my goodness. Not only was the food awesome, but the atmosphere was very cool. Well done, Counting House!!! We'll be back! But not for the shrimp and grits - the shrimp themselves were perfect, but the grits weren't the fine, creamy grits, tasty grits I was expecting (sorry). But the Brussels sprouts - I want to buy them in large quantities and hoard them... read more

Not very good. Hostess(maybe manager) seemed mad at the world, they didn't have champagne on New Years Day, fried oysters had about 75% breading, service was slow & staff just seemed kind of unhappy and not very accommodating. Ordered biscuits & gravy, biscuit was well over cooked & hard to eat. "Prosciutto" seemed like regular lunch meat ham read more

This restaurant is like experiencing Picasso or Matisse for the first time after posting your kids picture on the refrigerator. This food is like Mana. It was awesome food. read more

We went to Counting House on Friday July 21 to celebrate my girlfriend's 50th birthday with a party of seven. We arrived about 15 minutes before our reservation, and they had our table ready for us. The staff allowed us to linger in the lounge for cocktails before finally heading over to the table in a quiet, private corner of the restaurant. I had never eaten dinner there before, but I had been to the bar for drinks once or twice before and experienced cordial, but slow bar service. That was the same story last night. However, my small complaint about bar service wasn't enough to diminish the great night that we had. Once we got to our table, our service was top-notch. Our server was very knowledgeable, and was quick to offer thorough and thoughtful answers to all of our questions. He was also helpful with a few suggestions without being pushy. Even some of our off-menu substitutions were happily made. We ordered a couple of the meat and cheese platter starters for the table, and that was fantastic. Two from our party ordered the gazpacho starter, per our server's suggestion. The presentation was beautiful, and they were both very happy with the gazpacho. A few from our party ordered burgers, and they all agreed that it was the best burger they've had in a long time. I ordered the ribeye mid-rare, and I was blown away. The steak was cooked to perfection and the okra garnish was superb. The plate was both beautiful and delicious. It was the best steak I've had in at least 15 years. Our sever was attentive, friendly, and fun, without being intrusive. Every staff member who came to our table was very professional and very pleasant. We had already planned on having dessert at home, so we didn't order any,there, but we were surprised when a complimentary order of cotton candy hit the table with the check. It was a nice, jaunty exclamation point for our evening The food was amazing, the service was perfect, and the atmosphere was an added bonus. The artwork was also fun for everybody. And, of course, everybody loves the famous restrooms there. We'll definitely be back for special occasion dinners. It's a shame we can't eat there all the time. Thanks for helping us have a very special night! read more

we travel and eat out first class the world over. last night we decided to vacation near home. theater (dpac), fine ding, fine hotel. we sent to 21c and the counting house. top notch all the way. from the moment you pull up to the do until check out the next day, dining, bar, room excellent. ever been to place where staff is unhappy, not genuine, well this is NOT that place! this place from top to bottom is excellent. so much so, going back next month. WOW! read more

Came for restaurant week and had their lunch menu. Starter salad was great, catfish and pork were fantastic, and both deserts were amazing! Service was great and welcoming. Highly recommend. read more

Excellent meal in every respect; our waiter, Garrett, was professional, personable and committed that we get to our seats at DPAC in a non-harried manner and the food was outstanding. We chose two different appetizers (the cold pea soup was especially memorable and the presentation was beautiful); we had three different main courses and each was judged outstanding in every respect--flavors, creativity, plating, and portion size. The desserts were very good. I had some anxiety about this restaurant as I had read some luke warm to negative reviews--and I had concern about whether the kitchen would get our food out in a timely manner. None of these concerns was warranted. I have emailed several friends to put this this restaurant on their list to try (or try again) soon! read more

My wife and I were aware that Counting House had just opened and was likely still going through some growing pains, but everything was immaculate. The space is wonderfully cool, the food was expertly prepared with creative twists, and the drink menu was manageable but well-selected. Also, our server was great, helpful, and attentive. Take the opportunity to walk around the gallery and visit some of the art if you get the chance! Would highly recommend for a special night. read more

It's always a little anxiety provoking to bring a toddler to a fancy restaurant, but the inlaws were in town and had heard about 21c. We decided brunch was the safest bet and it turned out to be amazing. The buckwheat pancakes were perfection. My mother-in-law felt the fritata was too lemony, but I absolutely loved the tang. My husband got the trout bagel, which could have used some salt, but was otherwise delicious. My father-in-law seemed to enjoy his farmer's breakfast. But beyond the location being an exquisite visual treat, the staff made this meal truly exceptional. They welcomed my toddler, brought a giant pink penguin to the table to sit with him, and gave great advice on ordering for him. When he got antsy, we took a walk through the gallery, but he was eager to return to his penguin friend. It was a completely (shockingly) lovely experience. read more

My husband and I went for a nice dinner. We checked out the menus for the Lantern in chapel hill, durham hotel, and second empire in Raleigh. We wanted to go to second empire but couldn't get a reservation. We're glad that we went to The Counting House instead. We had the hamburger which was phenomenal and you can Order this in the half lb, which we didn't see on the menu. Several people in the bar area, got 1/2 their burgers in to go boxes. We also had the octopus, shaved cauliflower, fried ocra, and rice/butternut squash/miso on the appetizer menu for $6 each. All amazing flavors and more than enough to share. Their small plates are more substantial than most places. We had 2 different creative cocktails, peach mash bourbon and a cucumber vodka (reminded me of a apple jolly rancher), both exceptional. Our server Brandon was great for making suggestions and getting our order in ahead of a large dining party. We had excellent service and the manager took our cocktail order and served us. We will be back soon for a lighter meal and a replay of the octopus/butter bean appetizer and cocktails. Thank you! read more

Great restaurant. Service was outstanding and the food was wonderful. This was our second time visiting the restaurant and we will be back. Our server, Devin, was great- very knowledgeable of the menu great food and drink recommendations. read more

I would not return to this restaurant. We stayed at 21c, so we ate here several times; we had a bowl of French onion soup the first night. It was not real French onion soup- they brought a bowl with small balls of cheese and croutons, then poured beef bouillon on top of it- no blending, baking, no taste. I gave them a try for breakfast the next day, ordering eggs Benedict. The meat was a turkey bacon and did not taste good with it; the eggs were good, but the flavor of vinegar was a little strong. It was still good enough to finish, without the bacon. At night we had an event where they served potato soup, beef, salmon, salad, and a little chocolate cake for dessert. The beef was good, but I was near the beginning of the line, and the soup was only lukewarm. The salad and cake were good. This morning I ordered oatmeal, which looked like it would be easy. I'd seen a friend's, and it was served with berries on top and a little maple syrup. I prefer butter and sugar, so ordered it with the fruit on the side, no syrup, and some butter on the side; it showed up with fruit on the side, no butter, but syrup or something added into the oatmeal. It wasn't bad, but not what I'd asked for; I came away from this restaurant with the distinct impression that it does not matter what you ask for, they are going to serve it the way they want. Tomorrow morning I think I'll just walk over to the Marriott and eat breakfast there. read more

Went to celebrate our anniversary. Great choice! Despite the limited menu our food was delicious. We had the meat and cheese plate for an appetizer which was so good. Pork chops were delicious and perfectly cooked. Pasta dish was scrumptious too. Loved that the counting house acknowledged our anniversary with a bonus dessert! Made it extra special! Loved the vault! Hated the bathrooms! Cool artwork! Would definitely go back again. Derek our waiter ....Chris Rock look alike was awesome! read more

We had business guest in town and took them here. Everyone really liked it. We had a total of about 20 people and they were able to accommodate us very easily. Limited beer selection, but what they had was very good. read more

Interesting and creative dishes from an adventurous chef. Amazing decor. I had to rush through dinner to make it to a movie in time. The server was very accommodating, and our meals arrived very quickly. Next time, I plan to sit at the bar and try one of their impressive cocktails! read more

The service and waiter was great! However, at the end when I asked for small plates and a knife to cut my birthday cake that I purchased and brought with me to the restaurant; I was told that there would be a $3 cake cutting fee for every slice of cake that I cut and gave to my guests. Things immediately went sour after that. The waiter sent the assistant manager Che Ramos to speak with my party about the cutting fee (some Otho grandfather I've never heard of a day in my life); Che was very sarcastic & anal when speaking to myself and my sister about the situation. Che told me that the hostess made it aware to me of the cake policy & I explained to him that the hostess did not so he went to ask her & she could not point one person from my party whom she had explained it to so they put the blame on the waiter; the waiter was clueless so Che went back & forth with me rather than make things right. I asked to see the policy because there was no cake policy on the website or the menu & Che told me that the policy wasn't in writing that it was an oral policy. I was very upset because I was there to celebrate my birthday. Upon leaving as my family and I were walking out Jennifer Salome (manager) was walking toward the end/back of my family in which I was in the back also with her hand up as if she was pushing us out of the restaurant and she stated "you guys can leave and never come back" Jennifer also called my cousin a "bitch" out loud my cousin called her one as well. All of this to me was very unprofessional and not acceptable. I feel that this restaurant is a bit racist toward black people and I feel had we been another race things would not have happened the way it happened. No one ever called me to apologize. Not to mention they had a cop waiting for us as we exited the restaurant. I come from a family of class far from low budget and the way that we were treated was unacceptable. I feel violated and embarrassed as to how this restaurant treated us. read more

We went to Counting House last night for a special birthday dinner, and we were very happy with our visit! The cocktail menu was very impressive, I had the French I-95 and the "bouncing" pomegranate seeds were a very cool touch! My date had an old fashioned and another bourbon cocktail I can't remember, also both very good - interesting, complex flavors, not overly sweet. Our waiter was SO sweet, and once he found out it was a birthday, arranged for a little peanut butter eclair with a candle, AND!! Cotton candy!!! Truly above and beyond. Four stars rather than five for selection/choices. The wine by the glass selection was pretty limited, and there weren't any glasses below $12-13, if I remember right, which was disappointing. The entree menu felt short, but this may be due in part to our aversion to seafood, which I have heard is a specialty of theirs, and seemed to take up a good chunk of the menu. The decor was VERY cool, the zoo animal sculptures were so interesting. The bathrooms with the clear to opaque walls and doors were different and fun (though I can see it making for a funny story if you can't figure out how it works!). We didn't think to check out the safe downstairs until after we'd left, which is supposed to be really cool too, but we will definitely be back for another special occasion. read more

This was our first time. We were celebrating our anniversary and decided to try something different and this was. We are not foodies in any sense of the word and basically needed a dictionary to understand what was on the menu. The food was good but we weren't really impressed. The waitstaff were nice and reasonably attentive but they looked like they just walked in off the street. The waiter in training had his shirt tail hanging out. The may be trendy but it's not exactly high end in our mind. We ordered cocktails which were just OK. My wife, who has a low alcohol tolerance, ordered a Solstice and was able to finish the drink and not even feel a buzz. I had a LI Iced Tea and didn't really taste any alcohol. When I made the reservation I noted that it was our anniversary and reiterated this when they called to confirm the reservation. We assumed we might be offered some small dessert sample as we've received at other restaurants but all we got was the maitre d' wishing us a happy anniversary. Oh well. Price wise, we would consider it expensive. We know we are paying not only for the food, the presentation and the overall ambiance, but when you leave and are still hungry, something is just not right. Well, we tried something different and we most likely won't be back. read more