Do not go here. They changed the appointment time on me a few days before the appointment, I showed up at the correct new appointment time and the receptionist very rudely told me that I was there at the wrong time. The time she had us at was neither the original nor the updated time - in fact it was hours later. She ignored when I showed her my appointment receipt showing that I was there at the right time. When I tried to show her again to get some type of acknowledgement, she harshly said "i saw it the first time." 0 apology for getting my appointment wrong and 0 solutions provided outside of waiting hours and hoping we can get seen earlier. She really made us seem like it was our fault and we should be grateful to her for trying to "fit us in". I can understand a scheduling error, but don't gaslight us to make it look like we're the problem. Any employee with even an ounce of sense would at least apologize for the mistake and give us a solution that doesn't involve waiting hours for the wrong appointment time. I can't speak for the veterinary services here, but the lady who works the 9 AM shift on Fridays lost this business a client. I have never seen that bottom tier level of service, and I was honestly floored by it. No way I'd feel comfortable with my pet being in their care if that's who they are hiring or how they are training their staff. My only regret was that I never got her name so I could lodge an official complaint. read more

it is a nice place . just be smart and think before you agree to expensive tests and procedures . they may not be needed. i never argued about the costs , was always happy to pay whatever is needed to make my cat healthy , but when I was hit with a huge bill ( after I asked for the estimate three times , was promised it and never got it until after I surrendered my cat for the procedure ) I realized I need to be careful and not so trusting here. I loved this place until this experience. read more

I have had three dogs who were patients here, two of them lifelong companions, and I owe their longevity to the care at the Manhattan Veterinary Group. I even used to board my beloved Labrador here when they would take short term-boarding; unfortunately they don't provide this service anymore. But I have never been overcharged and most importantly have never had unnecessary/voluntary procedures up-sold to me. The staff and physicians are all lovely and I will continue to trust them implicitly for all my fur babies' veterinary needs :) read more

I had an appointment for my newly adopted cat Faro recently and it my first time ever visiting a vet let alone adopting a cat and the whole staff was amazing. I have to shoutout Tara in particular because she was attentive accommodating and very caring of Faro. The vet Faro saw was Dr. Maria Barandica was so patient with Faro when she jumped out of the carrier and we had to try to catch her while Faro was running around in the office. I have to Thank the whole staff for being so patient and understanding. I would highly recommend any and all especially first time pet owners to go here these professionals know what they're doing..... read more

*****RUN AWAY***** VCA corporate should be HORRIFIED!!!!! OVERCHARGED UNDERSERVED. If I could give zero stars, I would. I've been bringing my dogs here for over 16 years, but that ends today. This was by far the most unprofessional service I have ever received. Not only did they overcharge me for a vet to administer vaccines, but I had specifically made an appointment with the tech to give the shots. I arrived 30 minutes early, yet ended up waiting over an hour. My dog was already stressed, and the lack of professionalism only made it worse. After 45 minutes, another patient walked in with a dog and demanded to be seen immediately. They took that patient in while I was still waiting for the tech to give my dog two shots. The tech finally came in after an hour and tried to upsell me on additional services I didn't ask for, attempting to overcharge me even more. Then, the vet came in and mentioned they were understaffed, which, frankly, is not my problem. I pointed out that if you're giving my dog the shots, you will still charge me, to which the vet replied, "No, I won't." I was already planning to move my dog to a more compassionate and qualified office, but this visit confirmed it. This office has clearly changed, and the new vets seem more focused on overcharging and underdelivering. I've already contacted VCA corporate regarding the appalling treatment I received. I've lived across the street for 30 years, and this is how they treat their long-time clients. read more

I've been bringing my cats to this clinic since 2018 because it was recommended by the adoption place. In January 2025 I brought in my cat who had a severe rsv, hoping to get antibiotics treatment for him. He was sneezing and was very congested. Not only have I been denied antibiotics, I was given saline drops and Viralys that very overpriced comparing to Petco or Chewie. Additionally, they've charged me $141 for anti-vomit medication because my congested cat drooled in the short Uber. They did not tell me that this absolutely unnecessary medication will cost that much. Additionally they've given my cat some anti dehydration injection that cost $121. All of these medications were completely unnecessary and I was never told about the price upfront. Basically, I should have just paid for the visit which was $153, but wound up paying $440 for unnecessary meds. The only thing I've asked for were antibiotics and they have denied them to my pet. Please stay away from this place. They used to be much more reasonable, but now just charge for extremely overpriced meds that nobody ever needs. read more

Service was great, place very clean. Associate Veterinarian Carlyn Zylstra DVM , was very nice and answered all our questions we had for our pet cat named Sylvia. My son and I adopted Sylvia about 2 weeks ago so we decided to take her to the vet as a follow up per the Animal Shelter request. We had many pets before in Florida as well. We are very happy with their service and DVM Assoc Vet Zylstra. Emily the receptionist was very kind and helpful as well. read more

Manhattan Veterinary Group - This is our cat Sylvia - Veterinarians Near Me - New York, New York

I've always had stellar service at this vet, every Doctor I saw was always so kind and helpful. I've been using them for years, I have 4 cats. I just think they're great and always accommodating. read more

I'm always incredibly grateful to have them in case of emergencies. The front desk staff are always kind and professional (even when I'm panicked or stressed). I've had mixed reviews over the years but the fact remains that for me I'll always be grateful to have somewhere I trust to bring my fur kids to lol Long story short- there are good doctors and bad doctors in every practice; find the ones that are right for you. I'm personally sad to see most of the doctors I trusted have moved on but that's life and I wish them well. Thank you for all you do for us. read more

Manhattan Veterinary Group - Veterinarians Near Me - New York, New York

Thank you Dr.Rizzo, Kathy and the entire staff. This is a great office for all to visit with their pets. Gentle, generous, informative and accommodating staff. You and your pets will feel comfortable read more

Manhattan Veterinary Group - Here's a cute picture of my little ham! - Veterinarians Near Me - New York, New York

I'm gonna be honest. It's taken me quite some time to leave this review. My friends and I rescued this cat and brought her in for a full check up. I was going to keep her and we all wanted to make sure she had a full bill of health. We were concerned about her weight and a few other things but the vet assured us over and over again she was fine. We requested blood work but he said it wasn't necessary and that she was healthy. I should mention it appeared he didn't really want to be there. I would say about 5 months went by and while I was traveling for work I get a call that my cat had a seizure. She was rushed to the emergency vet where they diagnosed her with having this case of diabetes which was causing her organs to shut down. I was told it's completely livable with medication if it's caught in time. If it's caught in time. I begged them to do everything they could to save her. She ended up passing a few minutes later. Her little body gave out. Heart broken I wasn't able to be there for her in her final moments. She also passed on my birthday. I still mourn her. I say all of this to say... if the vet had initially taken her full check up more seriously and really listened to our concerns. Perhaps. Perhaps my baby could have been saved. I fully believe that. I never even had the heart to call them and complain about it because I was so heartbroken but here I am writing it out in this review. If I could give them zero stars I would. read more

Scheduled an appointment only to be told upon arrival that several messages and phone calls were made that day to let me know my cat's physician was out sick. Receptionist immediately placed blame on me, even though I only received one early morning phone call and no such text messages as were mentioned. They made no effort to correct the mistake, only offering to reschedule the appointment after I had already made the trip. Mistakes happen but this showed a lack of care towards pet owners and an unwillingness to accept blame when blame is due. read more

Most unprofessional bedside manners with no follow up phone calls. From the front desk personnel to doctors. Would strongly recommend using a different vet. So unhappy... I wish I did more research before selecting their puppy care plan. Don't sign up for it. read more

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I'm not a fan of writing bad reviews so I held off until now. I was compelled to write a review today after hearing about my neighbor's experience that matched my own. The following are 3 horrible experiences. I brought my dog in for a routine check up. The waiting area only got worse since the last time, the receptionists were more professional than the vets, this was our 3rd time here and it felt like our first time (impersonal and lax), and I left feeling like I got robbed because the vet was simply as disinterested as a person that isn't in to dogs. I truly felt like we were an inconvenience and disappointed the vet by not saying yes to every test. 2nd problem. My wife brings our cat in because he's having a penile/urinary problem. The first words out of their mouth was penis amputation! She calls me crying and hysterical due to the severe diagnosis. After a short amount of time she goes to the animal hospital where they correct the issue, prescribe medication and food, and kept our cat in tact. 3rd red flag. My neighbor goes in concerned about her dog's not-so-sudden weight loss. First words they have are "your dog can die" and go on to say blood work is necessary but they can't do it for a day so decide right now if you'll take your dog to the hospital for blood work or let it die tonight (3rd party information but I wouldn't be surprised). She took the dog to another vet and they simply recommended a fatter diet change. Fuck this place. Take your pet and money elsewhere. They're the reason I bring my dog down to FiDi instead of the UES where I live. read more

I took my dog Luke here for all 5 years we lived in the city. I continuously had nothing but fantastic experiences with them, both with medical care and boarding. I always felt that he would be cared for when I left him for boarding, and I never had an issue getting appointments. Highly recommend!! read more

I have been going there since my baby was puppy Now he is 14 years young. Since my favorite Dr. Windham left before they merged, I really didn't feel connection to this place but o have been using it as I was using their Care Club. But today, I met Dr. Katie Gerber who was amazing!!!! I wrote down so many questions before I took Max there as it's curbside drop off and I didn't get to go inside. She called me after she examined him, took time and answered all my questions with very professional and friendly manner. She also gave me options about treatments and payments. She made me feel like she really cares her patients and nervous dog parent!!! She is exactly what I expect as vet. I am so satisfied and my anxiety is gone after talking to her. I highly recommend her. I am so glad I stick to this vet and found her!!! Thank you!!! read more

I started coming here when New York Veterinary closed to merge with them. This place leaves a lot to be desired. The receptionists are very sarcastic and unfriendly. I have had about 3 appointments here and they were all running late (on average of 25 mins behind). The female doctor here is friendly and kind but always seemed in a rush which just left me with questions that I didn't get to ask. The other doctors were just indifferent and also rushed. Leave me to think they're very understaffed. Overall my biggest comment about this place is how much they charge for such mediocre service, other locations not too far from them charge about half with much better service. Will never bring my pets back here. Good alternative.. Harlem Animal Hospital they charge $59 for general exams as opposed to the $112 at Manhattan Vet Group. read more

So far so good. I've only been here once to get my newly adopted cat checked out. She is mostly healthy so everything went smoothly. She has acne under her chin, for which Dr Ken Nicolson prescribed the SkinGuard Restore pads. We were also given a welcome kit and a free sample of Revolution for flea and worms. I couldn't observe bedside manner because it was curbside drop-off only during Covid-19. I like the fact that they send you detailed receipt and you can make appointments/order meds through the online portal. $113 for a check-up was also a very reasonable price compared to quotes I received from nearby vets ($180-$210). read more

I've always had a good experience with the veterinarians at Manhattan Vet Group. The entire staff is always kind and they treat my cat very well. I don't have pet insurance, so I'm always paranoid about getting scammed when paying out of pocket for medical services, but I've never felt pressured by the staff here to pay for any work that wasn't thoroughly explained and strictly necessary. They also follow up via text after each appointment to make sure my pet is doing well. I definitely feel like my cat is in good hands here. read more

I took my recently-adopted cat to a physical exam today. The center has been quite responsive, and booking an appointment was really easy. During the COVID-19 period, they normally asked you to wait outside until the checkup is finished. But the procedure was quicker than expected so it was not an overwhelming wait at all. Dr. Charles Garneau-So examined my cat very effectively, called me during the visit to explain my cat's condition, and texted me notes that help me take further good care. This was my first time taking my pet to a vet, and the Manhattan Veterinary Group made this supposedly-stressful experience quite manageable. Thank you! read more

We went to the vet for a check up. A month later our cat is dead. I am still so distraught over my pets death so I will go into detail more next time. They dont care about your pet. They just want your money and I'm still grieving over my precious baby right now I don't have the strength to talk more about this. But if you love your pet, Try to look elsewhere. read more

Like a previous reviewer, I felt compelled to leave a comment here simply because I am shocked by mid-range rating this facility has. I moved to 81st St in March of this year, and I quickly made MVG the primary vet for my 3 year old pug. Thus far we've had two visits, and yes the office is currently going through reno so it's not the most glamorous building atm, but the staff is so incredibly kind and helpful. Each visit, I was welcomed warmly, was given time to ask my questions, and I was given honest answers. The staff were very open about pricing, my options in regards to her regular medications, etc. The best part was that I could see how much everyone there genuinely loved the animals in their care--the health and wellbeing of their patients was the number one concern. That made me feel so comfortable and confident in their abilities. My dog was carefully examined, received several vaccines, and was microchipped. They also had the best pricing for microchipping ($40 vs the $200 my previous vet quoted me), which they did while I was in office. The vet is usually a stressful event for my girl, but she has had no problems at MVG, and I definitely recommend them to anyone in the area. --Also, I also used the "free first visit" coupon with no issue and left the building with a bag full of freebies and coupons (we still use the bag!) read more

I can't review the doctors because I never got to see one of them. I had a certificate for a free check up/follow up from the ASPCA to check my kitten because she had a seroma as a result of her spay (common issue - but just wanted to make sure it was healing ok and the ASPCA suggested to have it checked by "X" date certain by the vet with my voucher). My new kitten was also going to be in need a booster. As the certificate states, the visit will only cover certain services and was well prepared to pay for the booster and any other special issues that may have arisen from the visit. I signed up through the VCA online portal for an appointment, received a form email saying "Your request for an appointment has been submitted. Someone from Manhattan Veterinary Group will contact you within one business day during our operating hours." When I did not hear from them after 2 business days, I called directly. My experience with the front desk (or whomever is answering their phones) was not good. The woman I spoke with could not have been more rude. When I explained to the woman that I had submitted a request for an appointment and asked if they had received it - she said, "maybe". MAYBE? She did not look, she just said, "what do you want?" And then proceed to give me all kinds of restrictions on when I could come in because I was coming in for a "free visit" and that the prime times are saved for "paying clients". WHAT? I tried to explain to her that the ASPCA had asked me to have my new kitten visit the vet by "X" date. She didn't seem to care. It was her manner and nastiness that I didn't appreciate. I felt shamed somehow. We are not a charity case. I was simply using this "free visit" voucher to to get my kitten's incision looked at, get the booster and as a way to get to know a new vet - we didn't have one. All after doing a what a feel good, exciting change in our lives - rescuing an animal. Now was an icky and uncomfortable experience. Her surliness was off-putting. In the end, I went to another VCA vet that did accept my certificate (Brooklyn), did not have crazy time (hour) restrictions on when they would see an animal. They have some restrictions on hours - but when I explained the kitten's situation - they had no problem finding a time that worked for all (for them, for me, for my kitten). Their customer service from the front desk was warm and welcoming - unlike my first encounter with this group. It is unfortunate b/c I live on the UES (within 2 blocks from Manhattan Veterinary Group), so this would have been the ideal fit for me. Tips for the Management: Understand that these vouchers are a good way to get a new long term client. Re-train your front desk on phone etiquette (I don't think I'm the first one to tell you this - there seems to be a pattern based on reviews here). Train your staff to understand that all pet parents coming in on a voucher or for their first time free visit is a new opportunity to connect and know we just want to establish a relationship with a clinic and doctor - these animals now new members of our family. Lose the judgemental attitudes. If it is not fun for your receptionist anymore - or there is burnout - perhaps it is no longer a good fit. It can turn people off your business. And finally, relax the restrictions on when a "voucher pet" can be seen. PS: Never did get a response to online appointment inquiry. Perhaps if I would have heard the words when I did call in, "I'm sorry we have been having issues with that portal, how can I help you today" or "I'm sorry, we must have missed that request, our apologies - let see if we can get something set up for you" would have gone a long way (even if your portal was working just fine). read more

My dog has been a patient with this place for almost 3 years. Out of nowhere he was denied treatment and later on the care plan membership was canceled. He never used all the services for which I paid the monthly payment. My dog was literally discriminated. I do not recommend this place nor the vets. The only Doctor who was actually doing his job and taking care of dogs was Dr Charles who unfortunately left this practice. No wonder why. Choose carefully your vet. read more

This is an update on my review of 7DAYS ago.. after my frenchies got their shots.. their faces severely swelled up .. I was terrified and incredibly worried abt them.. after that scary and upsetting episode Dr. Kamal and Dr. Charles called me and offered their help in order to help my beloved frenchies. I went to the vet today and Dr. Charles visited both Gucci and Chanel (free of charge). They are also working to get a full refund of my medical expenses and bills for the issue that happened Bcs of the shots. I'm incredibly glad of the help and support I received from them. My frenchies feels a lot better and they are back to normal!!! This was a terrible and traumatizing experience... but thank god.. everything resolved and most of all.. thank god my babies are healthy and ok. Thank you Dr Charles for the visit today!! You were very kind and my babies really appreciated your help!! I will definitely go back to this vet.. (basically it's my family vet...) but not for the shots.. Lol... at least not now.. read more

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I'm tired of poor service and I'm sorry they seem to have changed vets at this place. Not only our pup has received poor service and half the meds he needed - they overlooked serious condition and are really rude. Try and communicate and they are all in defense mode. I was yelled at by someone named Monica when I tried to explain they cannot hear me over the phone. Wait at the vestibule. read more

Brought my 6 month old puppy for a free first visit. Due to COVID, they do not let anyone into the building, which is an issue when it is 38 degrees outside. Even restaurants are letting a minimum number of people in wearing masks and maintaining distance. While I waited outside, a man who said he was the vet called from inside, said everything was fine. Because she needs to be spayed, I asked if she was in heat, having noticed some swelling in her vulva for about a week. Man says, "no, she's not in heat, no swelling or discharge at all." Well, 12 hours later, my puppy has bloody discharge. She is obviously in heat. Not sure he even looked at my dog. Very glad I was not billed. read more

..I'm so surprised to see such a low rating for this Vet! I've been coming here for years, they have always been soooo friendly to me, the the vets there genuinely care about their animals. Even the receptionist, when I call with weird, worried, maybe over dramatizing stories about my Concerns over my pet, I get reassurance, and even share a few laughs over my neurotic ways! Definitely recommend! read more

Constant staff turnover - you never get the same person or consistent follow-through. Not helpful with a difficult problem - a tumor is growing on my 17-year-old cat and oozing liquid and blood. After multiple visits and follow-up calls, the only guidance I've had is "go to Animal Medical Center, as we don't have the capacity to address this". While I respect that they may not have the expertise and skills to address the problem, I would have expected the practice I've used for 17 years to help me find a proper medical service and make the referral. read more

They are simply amazing, Dr Nicholson is the best vet around. I love taking my Emma there and she loves going read more

Manhattan Veterinary Group - Veterinarians Near Me - New York, New York

I wanted to take an advantage of first free exam so I made an appointment to go. I arrived 40 minutes early, was hanging out in the lobby since the doctor didn't see me a little after my appointment time. There were two receptionists; the lady sitting on the left was very welcoming and polite, but the lady in brunette was not at all friendly, had a frown on her face and didn't even acknowledge me till the moment I walked in till I left. I only heard her chit chatting about her plan with the co-workers but other than that she seemed like she hated her job. The exam went smooth. The doctor was friendly and informative. His assistant looked very lovely and polite as well. I was told the symptoms as I was expecting from my sick puppy and left with all of my questions answered. The doctor recommended me to have my dog get a x ray to study her further but I wasn't going to spend $350. The office is located in a busy area, waiting area was clean and neat. The office needs a bit of work. And the price to take one x ray $350? Eh. No thanks. But it was a pleasant visit. Except that one receptionist. read more

Manhattan Veterinary Group - Playing with the props in the waiting area - Veterinarians Near Me - New York, New York

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Absolutely love this vet office. I even make the trek from the upper west side for them! I recently moved to the city and wanted to choose a VCA practice because I trust the doctors there. My little Pickles got uncharacteristically aggressive during her blood work, but the whole team was so positive and helpful during the whole experience. I trust them with my fur baby, and they were all so helpful answering my slew of questions. read more

Manhattan Veterinary Group - Veterinarians Near Me - New York, New York

I am shocked by how uncaring this practice is...after almost 15 years of taking my dog there. She is running low on her thyroid medication and although she had been there less than one year ago for a visit (which was traumatic for her and she got inadequate care for an eye cyst), they told me they couldn't refill it since it has been so long. Less than one year ago? Ridiculous. So, I should traumatize my elderly dog by bringing her in just so they can write a prescription (a non-narcotic)...a prescription she has had for years? All about the money and not about the care. Really disappointed. I will NOT be going back. Just need to find someone who is compassionate enough to care for our dog in her final months or year or so. They just don't get it.... read more

Went to this clininic with myeldercat of nearly 19years and had Dr Joe Kodari who was excellent with my aged persion,then I had a Dr Bennis who was also very good.Seems like any good Vets working there DONT stay.Then I got Dr.Nicholson supposedly The director he let's you wait up to a good hour before he sees your pet.All weights blood pressure and injections are given buy his unlicensed students ,you never get the same peson twice.He had me bringing my cat in every2 weeks for check ups.I paid this practice thousands of dollars for my cats care.This man is rude, nasty and fights with his office staff in front of clients.When my cat died he never even gave me a courtesy call or signed the card that was passed around the office and mailed to me.Beware this is not a place to bring your loving pets.I learned the hard way.He is not a good person read more

Without question, I am not returning to this practice. The service is shockingly indifferent, and the vets seem to have high turnover, don't engage with the pet owners, and are not particularly warm and fuzzy. I used to live around the corner, so signed up for the Care Club, when my dog was a puppy. Long story short, he had a lot of stomach issues, and I struggled to get simple questions answered or an appointment when I needed one on short notice. Messages to the vet either went unanswered or -- on several occasions, the vet would call, I'd just miss her and call back less than 30 seconds later, but the front desk would say the Dr. was unavailable, and that would be that. Now, I'm sure vets get a slot of time where they return multiple phone calls, but I was NEVER able to reach the doctor when needed. No one did any trouble shooting with me of any kind. I subsequently went to a different practice, which worked with me to determine a food allergy -- to chicken, the very food that the VCA told me to feed him. It was a real study in contrasts -- the Upper East Side Veterinary Group kept a clean facility and took the time to engage me -- a concerned owner, on taking care of my dog. Because I had several months of the Care Club left, I decided to finish out the vaccination process during those months -- after all, I was paying for them. No more. I'm done. The last two vets I dealt with were rude, somewhat combative, and did not engage me in a way that felt like I was the client. I'll eat the last few months of the service. read more

Do not bother taking your pet here. Before my arrival I told the front desk I had adopted a kitten from the ASPCA and that I received a $250.00 coupon that I could use at Manhattan Veternary Group. I was late 10 minutes and told I would need to wait because they took the person that had come after me. That was fine but then several other clients came in after me and were seen. I was there for an hour and was completely ignored. I finally left without being seen. If I was treated with such disregard, how would my Kitten be treated? I felt that the Vet did not want to see me because of the coupon that I had from the ASPCA when in reality I was looking for a Veterinarian to work with. I have another cat at home. I've had many pets and was never treated so rudely by an Veterinary establishment before. Being late 10 minutes does excuse being treated horribly by these people. If any of the doctors at this establishment does not want to work with ASPCA clients, then they should let the ASPCA know as to not waste anyone's time. read more

Very loving and supportive care. Always follows up to see how the pets are doing after a sick visit.

So grateful for the care they have provided my cat Sasha and dog. A year ago my cat was diagnosed with a rare disease and I'm so appreciative for the advise and support during the process of curing her. One year later and she's healthy and happy. Thank you doctor Kamal and team. read more

Dr. Tomasch is the BEST! My cat Gus loves going to see her and he is so calm and relaxed when he is there. She is so knowledgeable and always willing to do extra checks to make sure Gus is fine. We had the free checkup appointment with her and knew this was where we always wanted to bring Gus. Her care and concern for him on the first appointment put us instantly at ease. As for the staff, we are always greeted with a smile and genuine hospitality when we are at the office. I live very far from the office and there are many other vets that would be closer to my house, but we continue to make the long trek with our kitty because of how amazing this location is and the way they treat Gus! read more

I brought my 5lb chihuahua here after I woke up to find him bleeding heavily from his mouth. I brought him to VCA where the vet seemed to struggle with where to even began examining my dog. He claimed that they did not have the 'proper instruments' for examining his throat because he was too small... After running blood work and 'examining' my dog, I was told that his red blood cell count was low and the vet even used the word 'cancer' telling me that it looks pretty bad and I should go to the animal hospital right away because he lost so much blood. I go to the animal hospital, now freaking out, where he has to have more blood work and tests (the same the vet did) only to find out that he had a bad tooth infection! This is something that should have been clearly visible as the source of the bleeding for any vet. I then had to go to a 3rd vet (Bidawee) to setup a tooth cleaning/extraction and get even more blood work on my poor dog. The staff is nice, but other vets can save you time/money and excessive testing/discomfort for your pet. Go somewhere else. read more